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praying for someone...I don't understand https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1699 |
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Author: | TheRiov [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | praying for someone...I don't understand |
I guess I missed something. I don't understand the value of prayer as generally described in Judeao-Christian writings. If God has a plan and everything happens according to God's plan or by God's will, what is the value of a prayer? Do people pray that their own will be done (in which case God allows your will to take precidence over his Plan) Do people pray that God's will be done (in which case what is the point? Presumably God's will is done if God wants it done) Do people pray over the things that God is indifferent about? (In which case God seems detatched) I carry my own grief with me. My thoughts go out to the person and I hope they are able to find peace. But for me God has no personal involvement in my life. God IS, but does not interecede, but sets things in motion and watches as they unfold. But God to me is neither omnipotent nor omnicient. My requests for intercession are merely a way of focusing my own will and self. |
Author: | Lenas [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:38 pm ] |
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If you pray, and you get something from it, it's the devil. |
Author: | Screeling [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:40 pm ] |
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This thread was done about a year or two ago. Stat-hole posted a really good article on it that I think was written by C.S. Lewis. |
Author: | Beryllin [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
TheRiov wrote: I guess I missed something. I don't understand the value of prayer as generally described in Judeao-Christian writings. If God has a plan and everything happens according to God's plan or by God's will, what is the value of a prayer? Do people pray that their own will be done (in which case God allows your will to take precidence over his Plan) Do people pray that God's will be done (in which case what is the point? Presumably God's will is done if God wants it done) Do people pray over the things that God is indifferent about? (In which case God seems detatched) I carry my own grief with me. My thoughts go out to the person and I hope they are able to find peace. But for me God has no personal involvement in my life. God IS, but does not interecede, but sets things in motion and watches as they unfold. But God to me is neither omnipotent nor omnicient. My requests for intercession are merely a way of focusing my own will and self. Prayer is God's way of telling us, "Come on into My throneroom, and let's talk. Unload your burdens. Tell Me what is bothering you. Never mind that I already know, tell Me, anyway. If My presence in your life is a positive to you, tell me. Express gratitude. Spend some time listening, and not just talking. Come to My throneroom. It will be a sweet scent to Me, because I love you, and beneficial to you." Prayer is a mighty gift given to us by God. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I have always thought of praying for someone as a way to offer solidarity and support. It is neither more or less effective than "thinking of" someone. However, depending on my relationship with the person I may use prayer as a way to find the understanding, patience and empathy within myself to support them in their time of need. To help uncover or rediscover the unique gifts God has given me to help this person in their time of need if you will. |
Author: | Ulfynn [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:55 pm ] |
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It possible that prayer is more widely accepted as a cathartic act than a petition for direct action (not that direct petitioning doesn't occur). |
Author: | NephyrS [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:57 pm ] |
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I don't pray for things to be done or not done, mostly. I pray for help to get through them. To me, prayer isn't so much about seeing physical results, as guidance, unburdening, and shoring up of resolve, etc. Getting through deaths of friends and family, as well as other stressful times, I certainly feel that the prayer has helped me be stronger. It's also possible that the belief in that has an effect of its own. |
Author: | Stathol [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Screeling wrote: This thread was done about a year or two ago. Stat-hole posted a really good article on it that I think was written by C.S. Lewis. Hmmm...did I? It was probably "The Efficacy of Prayer", an essay in "The World's Last Night": http://books.google.com/books?id=9nFujmxXcR8C&lpg=PA10&ots=NmD0ZPqX_S&pg=PA3#v=onepage Spoiler: |
Author: | Screeling [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:06 pm ] |
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I skimmed it, but that looks like it. |
Author: | Stathol [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
Actually, I have a similar question of my own. There's something that I've heard a lot, and that has always puzzled me, but the occasions where I hear it used are always precisely the most inappropriate time to ask about it. So I'll ask it here: TheRiov wrote: My thoughts go out to the person and I hope they are able to find peace. In a nutshell, I'm curious what this means to you, exactly. Ok, maybe not to you -- TheRiov -- personally, as you seem to have some sort of roughly deist theology. But I've heard this sort of thing expressed by the more agnostically inclined, and occasionally even from confirmed atheists. I've never quite been sure what to make of it. When (general) you say that you'll be thinking about someone or "sending them your thoughts", it is the purpose only to express sympathy for the sake of their psychological well-being, or do you believe that there is also some kind of power in the thought itself? Were it not possible for you to tell them that you were thinking about them, would there still be some benefit to them from your thinking? I'm equally puzzled when someone who doesn't believe in supernatural intervention asks for the thoughts and/or prayers of others. In cases where the recipient is a member of the board, perhaps this explanation is as simple as an electronic "get well" card. But in quite a few cases, the request will be on the behalf of someone who, in all likelihood, doesn't read this message board and will never see the expressed sympathies (ex. "my cousin has cancer, please think/pray for him"). This seems to imply some other reason beyond letting the sufferer know that others care. TheRiov wrote: My requests for intercession are merely a way of focusing my own will and self. This question is perhaps a bit less to the general audience. When you say this, do you mean it simply in a meditative sense, or do you believe that focusing your will has some kind of external influence on events? |
Author: | TheRiov [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Im on the fence. Somedays I believe that will can influence result. Somedays I dont. But in any event I have found that a vague sense of "I feel something" can be crystalized by forming and shaping it and refining it with words and coherent thoughts. It lends clarity to my life, and lets me focus on attainable goals. Example: If I am unhappy with my job, it would help me to focus on something I want to improve. The act of focusing my thought lets me refine the vague dissatisfaction with the status quo into a goal, and from there I can adopt an attitude, and take actions to further the goal. On the days when I do believe that Will can influence events then having a focused idea is even more important. |
Author: | FarSky [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
NephyrS wrote: I don't pray for things to be done or not done, mostly. I pray for help to get through them. To me, prayer isn't so much about seeing physical results, as guidance, unburdening, and shoring up of resolve, etc. Getting through deaths of friends and family, as well as other stressful times, I certainly feel that the prayer has helped me be stronger. It's also possible that the belief in that has an effect of its own. Essentially this, though on the rare occasions on which I do ask for things (a family member to be healed, safe travels, etc.), I generally pray asking for my desired outcome to occur if it is His will. I'm saying that I want x to occur, but more than that, I want God's will (y) to occur more, though I do have a preference for the outcome of the situation and am asking Him to make an exception to His planned outcome if He so chooses to grant my request. I believe the big stuff's charted out, but there's nothing that says God can't (or won't) grant requests if He so chooses; in fact, the opposite is true. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
TheRiov wrote: I guess I missed something. I don't understand the value of prayer as generally described in Judeao-Christian writings. If God has a plan and everything happens according to God's plan or by God's will, what is the value of a prayer? Do people pray that their own will be done (in which case God allows your will to take precidence over his Plan) Do people pray that God's will be done (in which case what is the point? Presumably God's will is done if God wants it done) Do people pray over the things that God is indifferent about? (In which case God seems detatched) The answer depends a lot on how exactly one believes God's plan works, exactly. Exactly to what degree God plans out the details of events on Earth is unknown. To put it simply, God has an extensive plan for humanity in general that has passed through different phases throughout history, but that does not mean God has a plan for whether you will chose to have oatmeal or Apple Jacks for breakfast. Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it. Praying for His will to be done is really more of an acknowledgement that His will will be done, and there's nothing we can do about it, and we're content that ultimately, it will all work out all right. God is not really indifferent to anything. If you did want to pray and ask for guidance about oatmeal versus cold cereal, go right ahead. God's answer may very well be "Eat whichever you prefer", but it won't be "I don't care; why are you bugging me with this?" |
Author: | TheRiov [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:47 pm ] |
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theres a bit of cognative dissonance here that I can't quite put my finger on. |
Author: | Imperi [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:49 pm ] |
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Did praying to the Greek gods work for the Greeks? Just curious. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
Diamondeye wrote: Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it. In high school (Catholic of course lol) I was kind of freaked out by Jesus' words on the cross. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." This freaks me because it was His will that he die and suffer on the cross, it was inevitable from the moment of creation. This implies the people who crucified him (along with those who went along with it) were following His will, so why would they need His forgiveness for enacting His will/following His plan? Further, if He didn't forgive them would they have gone to Hell or conversely if they had not followed His plan and crucified him would they be damned to Hell? Obviously I still believe but this dilemma remains unreconciliable to me and the more I ponder it the more nuanced it becomes. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
Hopwin wrote: Diamondeye wrote: Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it. In high school (Catholic of course lol) I was kind of freaked out by Jesus' words on the cross. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." This freaks me because it was His will that he die and suffer on the cross, it was inevitable from the moment of creation. This implies the people who crucified him (along with those who went along with it) were following His will, so why would they need His forgiveness for enacting His will/following His plan? Further, if He didn't forgive them would they have gone to Hell or conversely if they had not followed His plan and crucified him would they be damned to Hell? Obviously I still believe but this dilemma remains unreconciliable to me and the more I ponder it the more nuanced it becomes. Since it was part of His plan from the beginning, it was part of the plan to forgive them as well. Jesus had already told us to forgive others that we might be forgiven, so He was simply acting in accordance with what He Himself had commanded. The reason they need it is because they don't know they're following the plan; they're doing it of their own volition. One could argue that they aren't because God is deciding that they will, but nothing about God's plan to send Jesus implies that he necessarily had planned to send Him at any particular time. Rather, He sent Jesus at the time when He knew His plan would be fulfilled |
Author: | Stathol [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
All this talk of plans calls to mind... C. S. Lewis, Perelandra wrote: In the plan of the Great Dance plans without number interlock, and each movement becomes in its season the breaking into flower of the whole design to which all else had been directed. Thus each is equally at the centre and none are there by being equals, but some by giving place and some by receiving it, the small things by their smallness and the great by their greatness, and all the patterns linked and looped together by the unions of a kneeling with a sceptred love. Blessed be He!
[...] All that is made seems planless to the darkened mind, because there are more plans than it looked for. In these seas there are islands where the hairs of the turf are so fine and so closely woven together that unless a man looked long at them he would see neither hairs nor weaving at all, but only the same and the flat. So with the Great Dance. Set your eyes on one movement and it will lead you through all patterns and it will seem to you the master movement. But the seeming will be true. Let no mouth open to gainsay it. There seems no plan because it is all plan: there seems no centre because it is all centre. Blessed be He! Yet this seeming also is the end and final cause for which He spreads out Time so long and Heaven so deep; lest if we never met the dark, and the road that leads nowhither, and the question to which no answer is imaginable, we should have in our minds no likeness of the Abyss of the Father, into which if a creature drop down his thoughts for ever he shall hear no echo return to him. Blessed, blessed, blessed be He! |
Author: | Hopwin [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
Diamondeye wrote: The reason they need it is because they don't know they're following the plan; they're doing it of their own volition. One could argue that they aren't because God is deciding that they will, but nothing about God's plan to send Jesus implies that he necessarily had planned to send Him at any particular time. Rather, He sent Jesus at the time when He knew His plan would be fulfilled But doesn't that raise the question of whether or not sin is part of His plan? Or more troubling that sinning sometimes is His will? In which case is it even sin at all...? ugh. This is why I stopped thinking about this question years ago. |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
"Noetic Sciences" would tell you prayer can have some effect, whether or not the divine being you're praying to even exists. But apart from that, if one views "God" as a father-type figure, then as his children prayer makes perfect sense. |
Author: | Screeling [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
Hopwin wrote: Diamondeye wrote: Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it. In high school (Catholic of course lol) I was kind of freaked out by Jesus' words on the cross. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." This freaks me because it was His will that he die and suffer on the cross, it was inevitable from the moment of creation. This implies the people who crucified him (along with those who went along with it) were following His will, so why would they need His forgiveness for enacting His will/following His plan? Further, if He didn't forgive them would they have gone to Hell or conversely if they had not followed His plan and crucified him would they be damned to Hell? Obviously I still believe but this dilemma remains unreconciliable to me and the more I ponder it the more nuanced it becomes. Also consider that while Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, he prayed three times for the Father to take that "cup" from him, but said that he wanted the Father's will, not His own. So why would Jesus pray this when He knew the Father's will? (I have my own opinions, but figured I'd muddy the waters for you a bit more.) What I can say is that Jesus commands that we pray and He, as the Son of God, provides an example of always praying. I have seen miraculous things happen as a result of my prayers, so God has demonstrated to me that He listens and acts. God's plan will happen regardless of what I do. I just want to be a part of it and used for it. God is gracious enough to allow that. |
Author: | Adrak [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: praying for someone...I don't understand |
Prayers have no positive effect that I have witnessed when she decides to blow. I have had able bodied men react to save a vessel though. The only one praying had already been marooned to the back deck. |
Author: | Micheal [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:31 pm ] |
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I pray for strength to get through the storm, for whatever mercy that can be granted. I pray that the souls of my deceased friends and family be welcomed into his home, and that he in his wisdom allows no unnecessary suffering to happen. I also pray to give thanks when good things happen. |
Author: | darksiege [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:30 am ] |
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When I pray for someone... I usually do not pray for other people's recovery, I do not pray for other people's success. When I offer my prayers for someone, I am praying that they find the courage and strength to get them through the current situation. |
Author: | SuiNeko [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:14 am ] |
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Explain this to me. I'm relatively convinced there is no deity, though I don't rule it out - simply the absence of direct evidence compelling to me. Of course, there could be, and for an omniscient omnipotent omnipresent being there's no way I necessarily should, or even could, understand or interpret what evidence there is correctly. So I'm open to it. But I still find myself praying occasionally. I give thanks for my life, and my partner. I pray for friends and folks in trouble. I dont understand it, myself, intellectually. Is it a hail mary pass? A means of feeling like I 'did' something with no real effort expended? Then what about the prayers for gratitude? I have no theories on this. It just is. I'll try listening next time, Bery. See if any clarity comes. |
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