Today, to win FDA approval, a new medication must beat placebo in at least two authenticated trials.

In order for a drug to be considered effective it just has to beat the placebo.

http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/maga ... ntPage=all


If memory serves this includes statistically insignificant bestings.

Anti-depressants work, at least for some people with some conditions. Absolutely, without question. I've seen this in action and it is night and day.

Anti-depressants work, at least for some people with some conditions. Absolutely, without question. I've seen this in action and it is night and day.

Anti-depressants work, at least for some people with some conditions. Absolutely, without question. I've seen this in action and it is night and day.

Anti-depressants are all placebos or all anti-depressants are placebos?

Not to pick on your post Raf, but I wonder how prayer fits into this. There was a study a few years back that people who are prayed for when ill or depressed get better too. Or even that HR Study by... Drucker(?) where observed workers work faster and produce better goods because someone is paying attention to them.

From a strictly scientific standpoint therefore, prayer has a placebo effect because the causal connection between the prayer and the positive effect can't be observed. The aspect of prayer and how it works with God isn't in the purview of science. From a scientifc standpoint, prayer's usefulness could be evidence of God's work, and could be just a placebo effect. There is no observational way to tell, so science really shouldn't concern itself with that aspect. That's up to individual belief.

Isn't that the same thing? The placebo works based on an individual's belief that they are being treated (at least in theory) and prayer works because people believe that God is interceding on their behalf.

No. Prayer doesn't necessarily work because people believe God is doing something; it may be that He actually IS doing something.

Whether or not He actually is, however, is not scientifically determinable, so for strictly scientific purposes (i.e. leaving out the unobservable question of God's existance), it's a placebo effect. Whether the person's faith in God is causing God to respond with help, or whether the person's belief that is the case is causing the body to respond by repairing itself is not something we can determine.

Lol I love your technicalities and precision DE (seriously, not tongue in cheek). Here we are trying to say the same thing but with one key distinction between the two. I don't believe God intervenes directly in the world (like some hit-or-miss moderation {that is tongue in cheek}) but you leave the door open to the possibility.

Either way I think we are both saying that yes scientifically the effect of prayer is uncannily similar to the placebo effect which is itself on par with actual treatment.

And yet another view on it, is that to me it's a very obvious pacebo affect and another bit of evidence that there isn't a God.

It doesn't prove or disprove God. Just because I don't believe God intervenes in the world doesn't mean I don't whole-heartedly believe in Him. I just feel He is not a waiter floating above in Heaven taking orders in the forms of prayers.

It doesn't prove or disprove God. Just because I don't believe God intervenes in the world doesn't mean I don't whole-heartedly believe in Him. I just feel He is not a waiter floating above in Heaven taking orders in the forms of prayers.