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What does "representative democracy" mean to you?
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Author:  RangerDave [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  What does "representative democracy" mean to you?

Just curious what y'all think.

*Edit: See the discussion below re the meaning of "representative democracy", but for purposes of the poll, I'm talking about the United States system of government, whatever you want to call it. Basically, I want to know how you think a legislator, in the US context, should vote on a policy issue if he disagrees with his constituents' preferences.

Author:  Ladas [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "representative democracy" mean to you?

Should probably start with a description of Democracy versus Republic.

Author:  Hopwin [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

By thinks X is best, does that mean best for the country or his/her personal preference/etc?

Author:  RangerDave [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "representative democracy" mean to you?

I don't think that distinction is necessary here, Ladas, as the poll refers to "representative democracy," not "Democracy" (i.e. not direct democracy).

Author:  Rynar [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

RD:

As you've asked the question, in a Representitive Democracy, a representitive is obligated to cast his vote with his constituents.

However, we don't have a Representitive Democracy in America. We have a representitive Republic. In a Representitive Republic, you vote for the person who you think will best represent you, but what they vote for is what they feel will be best.

Author:  Ladas [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "representative democracy" mean to you?

RangerDave wrote:
I don't think that distinction is necessary here, Ladas, as the poll refers to "representative democracy," not "Democracy" (i.e. not direct democracy).

/em points to the post above him.

Author:  RangerDave [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Hopwin wrote:
By thinks X is best, does that mean best for the country or his/her personal preference/etc?


Best for the country/state/whatever, not just for their own personal interests.

Author:  Müs [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

Rynar has the right of it.

Thus, my vote for vote like the constituents.

Author:  RangerDave [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Rynar wrote:
As you've asked the question, in a Representitive Democracy, a representitive is obligated to cast his vote with his constituents.

However, we don't have a Representitive Democracy in America. We have a representitive Republic. In a Representitive Republic, you vote for the person who you think will best represent you, but what they vote for is what they feel will be best.


Can you provide a source for that definitional distinction, Rynar? My recollection from poli-sci comports with these Wiki entries:

Representative democracy is a form of government founded on the principle of elected individuals representing the people, as opposed to either autocracy or direct democracy.

The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives; that is, not necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or are limited in power as proxy representatives.


Things get a little muddled in the US context:

Wiki on Representative Democracy wrote:
The term republic may have many different meanings. Today, it often simply means a state with an elected or otherwise non-monarchical head of state....It may also have a meaning similar to liberal democracy. For example, "the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law".


But the reason for this muddle is that the American concept of "republic" is actually just "representative democracy":

A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. In the rest of the world this is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term, representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.


Basically, it sounds like in the US, we use the phrase "republic" to mean "representative democracy plus Constitutional limits on what government can do".

Author:  Ienan [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "representative democracy" mean to you?

I would vote as I believed. If the voters don't like the way I vote, they could vote me out next election. These people are leaders in a republican form of government as Rynar said. Leaders are supposed to lead, not follow the polls. They need convince their constituents why they voted a certain way and if they can't, their opponent (either through primary challenge or a general election) will win.

Author:  darksiege [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Müs wrote:
Rynar has the right of it.

Thus, my vote for vote like the constituents.


this

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

The people elect them to vote as the representative best believes, thats why character and personal belief matter and a person who votes as popular opinion shifts is not seen as a good rep.

Author:  darksiege [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Elmarnieh wrote:
The people elect them to vote as the representative best believes, thats why character and personal belief matter and a person who votes as popular opinion shifts is not seen as a good rep.


Elmo, that would make sense of a representative republic, which is not what was inquired about.

Author:  Hopwin [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

Setting aside the technical debate of the proper usage of representative democracy. I voted for X. A representative has a duty to vote for what is in my best interest overall rather than what I prefer.

For example I would prefer that everyone in California cover the taxes of Ohio residents but my representative had better recognize that this is not in the best interest of the nation and vote accordingly.

After all isn't that essentially why we have a two-party system? If you had to elect someone based on your preference then there would be no political cohesion at all (100 way deadlock in the Senate) so you are forced to choose a political philosophy that most accurately reflects your values, beliefs and preferences.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "representative democracy" mean to you?

I don't see that "what the consitutents prefer" is generally well-defined enough in the first place for the question to be meaningful.

Author:  Müs [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

AAAAH!!!! SEMANTIC ARGUMENT!!!!

/runs screaming from the thread

Author:  Aizle [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

Do we have any other types here?

Author:  Müs [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Aizle wrote:
Do we have any other types here?


AHHH!!!! META ARGUMENT!!!!!

/flees again

Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

My answer:

Either/both. That's up to the legislator to decide.

I have no problems with a guy voting for what he thinks is best, he'll answer to his constituents. He was, after all, chosen to represent their interests, not their whims. He was supposedly chosen because he's more knowlegable about the issues than the general public.

I also have no problems with a guy "selling out" because he gives the people what they want.

Personally, I think any legislator who's voting record is not a combination of both is probably not doing his job well.

Author:  Rynar [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

Dismissing this argument as semantic is to argue disingenuously, as we are discussing two entirely different ideas and philosophies for forms of government. It is akin to dismissing the difference between a right turn and a left turn when giving directions as semantic because, after all, they are both turns.

Author:  DFK! [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Rynar wrote:
Dismissing this argument as semantic is to argue disingenuously, as we are discussing two entirely different ideas and philosophies for forms of government. It is akin to dismissing the difference between a right turn and a left turn when giving directions as semantic because, after all, they are both turns.


Dismissing anything as semantics is just the modern way of pussying out of the conversation.

The English Language wrote:
se·man·tics
   /sɪˈmæntɪks/ Show Spelled[si-man-tiks] Show IPA
–noun(used with a singular verb)
1.
Linguistics.
a.
the study of meaning.
b.
the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.
2.
Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.
3.
the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.
4.
general semantics.


None of those indicate triviality. Indeed, the meaning of things is incredibly important. Hand-waving arguments away as "that's just semantics" is an utter failure to be willing to have reasonable discourse.

Author:  Müs [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

Arguing about what the OP meant when he said "Representative Democracy" instead of the difference in ideals between the two poll choices is a semantic argument, and dodges the actual question posed.

And the question, as posed, is "What does "representative democracy" mean to you?".

To me, that means a representative, duly elected by the people as an extension of his constituents will. Said representative should vote in the way his constituents desire.

"Representative Republic" is what we have in the US. And in such, a representative votes in the way that he believes is best for himself or his political interests, while lying to his constituents about it so he can maintain his position.

See? There's a distinct difference between the two.

Author:  Rynar [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

No, I answered the question as it was posed. I simply mean to clarify the intent. I also assert that in implying that what we have here is a Representitive Democracy, when a clear difference exists between what is implied and what actually is, intentionally muddies the water, and is one of the reasons for our slow decline in to the sorry state of affairs we have today.

Author:  Rynar [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

DFK! wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Dismissing this argument as semantic is to argue disingenuously, as we are discussing two entirely different ideas and philosophies for forms of government. It is akin to dismissing the difference between a right turn and a left turn when giving directions as semantic because, after all, they are both turns.


Dismissing anything as semantics is just the modern way of pussying out of the conversation.

The English Language wrote:
se·man·tics
   /sɪˈmæntɪks/ Show Spelled[si-man-tiks] Show IPA
–noun(used with a singular verb)
1.
Linguistics.
a.
the study of meaning.
b.
the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.
2.
Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.
3.
the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.
4.
general semantics.


None of those indicate triviality. Indeed, the meaning of things is incredibly important. Hand-waving arguments away as "that's just semantics" is an utter failure to be willing to have reasonable discourse.


I could not possibly agree more.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

The point of language is to communicate, if two people are not talking about the same thing no progress can be made. Meaning must be a shared meaning otherwise it is pointless.

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