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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:18 am 
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This is a relatively frequent topic here, but I thought this opinion piece from the WSJ was an interesting read, and I wouldn't mind some comments about the accuracy of his statements in regards to the studies. Especially from those that follow these topics more than I do.

Alan Reynolds wrote:
President Barack Obama's new health-care legislation aims to raise $210 billion over 10 years to pay for the extensive new entitlements. How? By slapping a 3.8% "Medicare tax" on interest and rental income, dividends and capital gains of couples earning more than $250,000, or singles with more than $200,000.

The president also hopes to raise $364 billion over 10 years from the same taxpayers by raising the top two tax rates to 36%-39.6% from 33%-35%, plus another $105 billion by raising the tax on dividends and capital gains to 20% from 15%, and another $500 billion by capping and phasing out exemptions and deductions.
Add it up and the government is counting on squeezing an extra $1.2 trillion over 10 years from a tiny sliver of taxpayers who already pay more than half of all individual taxes.

It won't work. It never works.

The maximum tax rate fell to 28% in 1988-90 from 50% in 1986, yet individual income tax receipts rose to 8.3% of GDP in 1989 from 7.9% in 1986. The top tax rate rose to 31% in 1991 and revenue fell to 7.6% of GDP in 1992. The top tax rate was increased to 39.6% in 1993, along with numerous major revenue enhancers such as raising the taxable portion of Social Security to 85% of benefits from 50% for seniors who saved or kept working. Yet individual tax revenues were only 7.8% of GDP in 1993, 8.1% in 1994, and did not get back to the 1989 level until 1995.

Punitive tax rates on high-income individuals do not increase revenue. Successful people are not docile sheep just waiting to be shorn.

From past experience, these are just a few of the ways that taxpayers will react to the Obama administration's tax plans:

• Professionals and companies who currently file under the individual income tax as partnerships, LLCs or Subchapter S corporations would form C-corporations to shelter income, because the corporate tax rate would then be lower with fewer arbitrary limits on deductions for costs of earning income.

• Investors who jumped into dividend-paying stocks after 2003 when the tax rate fell to 15% would dump many of those shares in favor of tax-free municipal bonds if the dividend tax went up to 23.8% as planned.

• Faced with a 23.8% capital gains tax, high-income investors would avoid realizing gains in taxable accounts unless they had offsetting losses.

• Faced with a rapid phase-out of deductions and exemptions for reported income above $250,000, any two-earner family in a high-tax state could keep their income below that pain threshold by increasing 401(k) contributions, switching investments into tax-free bond funds, and avoiding the realization of capital gains.

• Faced with numerous tax penalties on added income in general, many two-earner couples would become one-earner couples, early retirement would become far more popular, executives would substitute perks for taxable paychecks, physicians would play more golf, etc.

In short, the evidence is clear that when marginal tax rates go up, the amount of reported incomes goes down. Economists call that "the elasticity of taxable income" (ETI), and measure it by examining income tax returns before and after marginal tax rates claimed a bigger slice of income reported to the IRS.

The evidence is surveyed in a May 2009 paper for the National Bureau of Economic Research by Emmanuel Saez of the University of California at Berkeley, Joel Slemrod of the University of Michigan, and Seth Giertz of the University of Nebraska. They review a number of studies and find that "for an elasticity estimate of 0.5 . . . the fraction of tax revenue lost from behavioral responses would be 43.1%." That elasticity estimate of 0.5 would whittle the Obama team's hoped-for $1.2 trillion down to $671 billion. As the authors note, however, "there is much evidence to suggest that the ETI is higher for high-income individuals." The authors' illustrative use of a 0.5 figure is a perfectly reasonable approximation for most purposes, but not for tax hikes aimed at the very rich.

For incomes above $100,000, a 2008 study by MIT economist Jon Gruber and Mr. Saez found an ETI of 0.57. But for incomes above $350,000 (the top 1%), they estimated the ETI at 0.62. And for incomes above $500,000, Treasury Department economist Bradley Heim recently estimated the ETI at 1.2—which means higher tax rates on the super-rich yield less revenue than lower tax rates.

If an accurate ETI estimate for the highest incomes is closer to 1.0 than 0.5, as such studies suggest, the administration's intended tax hikes on high-income families will raise virtually no revenue at all. Yet the higher tax rates will harm economic growth through reduced labor effort, thwarted entrepreneurship, and diminished investments in physical and human capital. And that, in turn, means a smaller tax base and less revenue in the future.

The ETI studies exclude capital gains, but other research shows that when the capital gains tax goes up investors avoid that tax by selling assets less frequently, and therefore not realizing as many gains in taxable accounts. In these studies elasticity of about 1.0 suggests the higher tax is unlikely to raise revenue and elasticity above 1.0 means higher tax rates will lose revenue.

In a 1999 paper for the Australian Stock Exchange I examined estimates of the elasticity of capital gains realization in 11 studies from the Treasury, Congressional Budget Office and various academics. Whenever there was a range of estimates I used only the lowest figures. The resulting average was 0.9, very close to one. Four of those studies estimated the revenue-maximizing capital gains tax rate, suggesting (on average) that a tax rate higher than 17% would lose revenue.

Raising the top tax on dividends to 23.8% would prove as self-defeating as raising the capital gains tax. Figures from a well-know 2003 study by the Paris School of Economics' Thomas Piketty and Mr. Saez show that the amount of real, inflation-adjusted dividends reported by the top 1% of taxpayers dropped to about $3 billion a year (in 2007 dollars) after the 1993 tax hike. It hovered in that range until 2002, then soared by 169% to nearly $8 billion by 2007 after the dividend tax fell to 15%. Since very few dividends were subject to the highest tax rates before 2003 (many income stocks were held by tax-exempt entities), the 15% dividend tax probably raised revenue.

In short, the belief that higher tax rates on the rich could eventually raise significant sums over the next decade is a dangerous delusion, because it means the already horrific estimates of long-term deficits are seriously understated. The cost of new health-insurance subsidies and Medicaid enrollees are projected to grow by at least 7% a year, which means the cost doubles every decade—to $432 billion a year by 2029, $864 billion by 2039, and more than $1.72 trillion by 2049. If anyone thinks taxing the rich will cover any significant portion of such expenses, think again.

The federal government has embarked on an unprecedented spending spree, granting new entitlements in the guise of refundable tax credits while drawing false comfort from phantom revenue projections that will never materialize.


In particular, the underlying math behind his statements, and the math used by Obama and Co. to fund the healthcare bill become even more suspect when another large portion of the funds to pay for this comes from the mandate to buy insurance. The only way to cover the increased costs of the mandatory coverage (i.e. pre-existing, etc) is to reduce the risk by increasing the number of healthy people paying into the system. However, there seem to be some questions about who, and how exactly, the government is going to force the issue and collect those needed funds should the problems experienced in MA be similiar to the national plan.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:30 am 
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Alan Reynolds wrote:
The president also hopes to raise $364 billion over 10 years from the same taxpayers by raising the top two tax rates to 36%-39.6% from 33%-35%, plus another $105 billion by raising the tax on dividends and capital gains to 20% from 15%, and another $500 billion by capping and phasing out exemptions and deductions.


Most, if not all of that is just letting the Bush tax cuts expire on schedule instead of extending them, so it's disingenuous of the author to phrase it as Obama raising the tax rates.

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The maximum tax rate fell to 28% in 1988-90 from 50% in 1986, yet individual income tax receipts rose to 8.3% of GDP in 1989 from 7.9% in 1986. The top tax rate rose to 31% in 1991 and revenue fell to 7.6% of GDP in 1992. The top tax rate was increased to 39.6% in 1993...[y]et individual tax revenues were only 7.8% of GDP in 1993, 8.1% in 1994, and did not get back to the 1989 level until 1995.

Punitive tax rates on high-income individuals do not increase revenue.


That conclusion doesn't follow from the data he provided in the previous paragraph. Quite the opposite in fact. The top rate was cut almost in half in the late 1980s (from 50% to 28%), but revenues only went up 0.4%. From 1992 to 1993, on the other hand, rates went up from 31% to 39.6%, and revenues went up too. And revenues kept going up in each of the following years, despite the higher tax rates.


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From past experience, these are just a few of the ways that taxpayers will react to the Obama administration's tax plans:

...

In short, the evidence is clear that when marginal tax rates go up, the amount of reported incomes goes down.


He doesn't actually provide any evidence in that section of the op-ed. He just lists a bunch of ways in which people might be able to reduce their taxes by shifting assets around. That's advice, not evidence.

Quote:
The evidence is surveyed in a May 2009 paper for the National Bureau of Economic Research by Emmanuel Saez of the University of California at Berkeley, Joel Slemrod of the University of Michigan, and Seth Giertz of the University of Nebraska. They review a number of studies and find that "for an elasticity estimate of 0.5 . . . the fraction of tax revenue lost from behavioral responses would be 43.1%." That elasticity estimate of 0.5 would whittle the Obama team's hoped-for $1.2 trillion down to $671 billion. As the authors note, however, "there is much evidence to suggest that the ETI is higher for high-income individuals." The authors' illustrative use of a 0.5 figure is a perfectly reasonable approximation for most purposes, but not for tax hikes aimed at the very rich.


The paper he cites is here. I've only skimmed it, but it appears he's cherry-picking and mischaracterizing their findings. In a nutshell, the study was based on responses to the 1993 tax increases, and found that at high income levels, people did shift their income around (thus exhibiting high ETI) to minimize their taxes in the short-term, but that effect decreased with time, resulting in a lower ETI over the longer term (estimated between 0.12 and 0.4). That makes sense on an intuitive level if you think about it - people make their investment moves just before a tax hike comes in, but after that first year or two, they have no choice but to pay the higher rate - and it helps explain why tax receipts continued to increase throughout the 90s, despite the higher tax rates.


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For incomes above $100,000, a 2008 study by MIT economist Jon Gruber and Mr. Saez found an ETI of 0.57. But for incomes above $350,000 (the top 1%), they estimated the ETI at 0.62. And for incomes above $500,000, Treasury Department economist Bradley Heim recently estimated the ETI at 1.2—which means higher tax rates on the super-rich yield less revenue than lower tax rates.


Don't have time to look this one up, but based on the issues I noted above, I'm guessing this characterization is similarly problematic. What timeframe are we talking about? What tax rates? Just pointing out a high ETI without any context is both useless and misleading.

As for the rest (cap gains, dividends, etc.), like I said, I'm out of time, but it seems like the author's credibility is pretty low at this point anyway.


Last edited by RangerDave on Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:33 am 
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The reasons you put out are more support why progessives taxes don't work. People just find new ways around them by changing their habits.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:42 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
The reasons you put out are more support why progessives taxes don't work. People just find new ways around them by changing their habits.


How do you figure? I pointed out that the op-ed author's own data and sources indicate that increasing the top tax rates (at least in the range from 28% to 39%), is quite compatible with increasing tax revenues. People do change their habits, but there's only so much they can change, so it's still "profitable" for the government to raise tax rates even though some potential revenue is lost in the process.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:52 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
That conclusion doesn't follow from the data he provided in the previous paragraph. Quite the opposite in fact. The top rate was cut almost in half in the late 1980s (from 50% to 28%), but revenues only went up 0.4%. From 1992 to 1993, on the other hand, rates went up from 31% to 39.6%, and revenues went up too. And revenues kept going up in each of the following years, despite the higher tax rates.


I would argue this is because loopholes are closed over time.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Personally, I would just like to see the US go to a flat tax system- pick a nice number like 28 or 30%, and everyone pays it.

I think the equity that this would induce in peoples feelings, as well as the removal of the risk of a 'tipping point' would be excellent.

The problem with our current system, is that we are trying to emulate some of the benefit systems of other more socialized countries, without properly implementing them. In the UK, for example, everyone pays high taxes, and everyone can take advantage of the medical care.

In the US, on the other hand, the breakpoint for being able to take advantage of most aid type medical programs is about the same as the breakpoint for not having to pay for these systems. In other words, you pay for a plan that you do not benefit from.

Most of the people I know having the most financial problems are those that are lower middle class- they make enough to pay pretty hefty taxes, but they make too much to benefit from most aid programs.

My 2 CP.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Someone really needs to reconcile the "the rich are taxed way too much," the "the rich use a bunch of loopholes and don't pay enough tax," and the "the rich are buying legislators and **** us via inflation and government debt for their own benefit" positions. Which one is it?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Xequecal:

It's quite simply the rich are taxed too much. They pay 50% of personal income taxes. However, what RangerDave and the Op-Ed both ignore is that the burden of taxation has shifted over the last 35 years. Personal income taxes account for 38-45% of government revenues in a given year. Payroll taxes account for approximately the same. In 1960, Payroll Taxes were a little less than 2% of total government Revenues. Personal income taxes were less than 10%. Corporate incomes taxes were less than 5%. Figure out which revenue source we destroyed in favor of taxation as we moved away from a material resource economy to a paper resource economy.

The amount of income tax relative GDP collected in any year, as a percentage, also provides a horribly flawed benchmark because it assumes 0 real growth in an inflationary system.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:13 pm 
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If we don't repeal some of the entitlement programs then it makes no sense to adopt a flat tax. If we tax the "poor" to pay for their own programs then the tax rate would need to rise for the "rich" because the lower tax bracket is essentially another form of subsidization.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Repealing the entitlement programs and cutting overall taxes appropriately would be more beneficial than the entitlement programs ever proved to be. The irony that a portion of your society cannot live without working is amusing.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:27 pm 
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But unless we have a flat tax, the incentive to repeal some of the entitlement programs isn't there.

Once everyone is paying for things, everyone will have more of an interested stake in what the money is being used for.

And honestly, even with a flat tax, the majority of the money would still be coming from the richest 5% or so.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Repealing the entitlement programs and cutting overall taxes appropriately would be more beneficial than the entitlement programs ever proved to be. The irony that a portion of your society cannot live without working is amusing.

Amusing? Interesting choice of words. I agree with your sentiment. It is a matter of efficiencies.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Well, it depends on if you're talking about for the good of the country or for the good of the people in the country. Sadly, anything that's good for one is usually bad for the other.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:05 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Repealing the entitlement programs and cutting overall taxes appropriately would be more beneficial than the entitlement programs ever proved to be. The irony that a portion of your society cannot live without working is amusing.

What's amusing is the arguments used to pull this robbery off.

My mother, bless her heart, called me while celebrating the passage of the health care bill. She was giddy with excitement and figured I would be too (I'm actually the centrist of the family). I told her it was robbery, what was going on. She was shocked I felt that way, and I explained how this "taking from the rich and giving to the poor" was no better than government theft.

She argued that it was a just and proper thing to do, 'till I asked her about how, for years, my sister and her husband earned more than me...should they have given me their money because they made more than me? Should I have demanded it? Should I have been bitter and angry because things weren't equal? Should we, as a family, have criticized them for not being "worth" the money they earned?

"Of course not... "

Not that it did any good. She just started talking about something else and promptly forgot the conversation even took place.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:20 pm 
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My accountant is already prepping the necessary paper work to convert my business from an s chapter to a C corp.
She's also doing a review and analysis of the benefits package and taxes.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:13 pm 
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In 1960, Payroll Taxes were a little less than 2% of total government Revenues. Personal income taxes were less than 10%. Corporate incomes taxes were less than 5%. Figure out which revenue source we destroyed in favor of taxation as we moved away from a material resource economy to a paper resource economy.


This is one of the better observations I've read here in awhile.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Taskiss:

Your story reminds me of my relationship with my own mother, and my own family. I wonder how many of us have had these same sorts of conversation with their own parents over the past few weeks.

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