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The Achievement Gap https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2885 |
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Author: | Dash [ Mon May 10, 2010 12:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | The Achievement Gap |
The Achievement Gap is caused by: 1. Social injustice (prejudice, racism, etc) 2. The students parents and teachers. (apathetic parents, horrible teachers etc) 3. Cognitive ability. (aka as this anonymous author puts it: The Voldemort View) Interesting article. It talks about the achievement gap but the main point was the way the education infrastructure in the US is gated to weed out dissenting views: http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?Doc_Id=1310 Quote: n the public domain, you'll hear two contrasting views about the achievement gap, its cause and solution. The first is the progressive view, the one associated with "progressive education," which holds that social injustice, institutionalized racism, white prejudice, and other societal ills cause the achievement gap. Progressives want to fix the achievement gap by moving underachieving students closer to high-achieving students whenever possible, arguing that tracking and sorting are evils that create underachieving “ghettos” that perpetuate, or even cause, the gap. In schools with a majority minority population of underachievers (i.e., inner city urban schools or charter schools specifically created for these populations), progressives push for community involvement, encouraging teachers to support their students in every aspect of life and seek to make the curriculum "relevant." Quote: The second view, what I'll call the conservative view of the achievement gap, also focuses on student values. But instead of encouraging teachers to respect the student's culture, conservatives say that parents and teachers of low-performing students are the cause of the gap, by failing to give the students the correct cultural values. Hard work, family values, commitment to the importance of education, and "no excuses," to quote the Thernstroms, who are major proponents of the conservative view, will close the achievement gap. The conservatives believe that higher standards are the order of the day, and that everyone can achieve if they just work hard. Conservatives hold ed schools in extremely low esteem, and feel that the progressive push to “understand” students and teach simplified (as they see it) curriculum contributes to the problem. The conservative view is held by most politicians of any ideology. Both NCLB and Race to the Top are based on this viewpoint—which comes along with a hefty dose of blame for the teachers, the ed schools that produce them, and the unions that represent them. Quote: If all you watched were the shout shows, you'd never know there was another way of assessing the achievement gap. And in fact, while progressives and conservatives have many adherents and could even be described as "groups," those holding the third view don’t get together much. They don’t hold meetings, they don’t have organizations, and in general, they avoid the field of educational policy. People holding this third view—again, not a group—don’t talk much in public. Let's call this third view the Voldemort View: the View That Must Not Be Named. Quote: And so, the Voldemort View: academic achievement is primarily explained by cognitive ability, and therefore the achievement gap is also most likely caused in large part by differences in cognitive ability. People with this view don’t promote solutions, primarily because in order to even start thinking about solutions one has to be able to discuss the possible cause and mentioning this cause is politically unacceptable. People who think it likely that the achievement gap is primarily cognitive don't usually risk mentioning it in public because it's a career destroyer. Please do not infer any other opinions about those with a Voldemort View, because I promise you, most of what you're likely to assume is simply wrong.
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Author: | Ladas [ Mon May 10, 2010 1:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I didnt read the entire article, just your snippets, but in my experience, most of the people that hold the conservative view recognize the "third" position and accept it as part of the pool of students. Its usually mentioned as "up to their ability" when making statements about working hard, and including "education" that teaches certain vocational abilities, rather than purely academic. |
Author: | Dash [ Mon May 10, 2010 1:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Since having a son of my own I've been more and more interested in what the prevailing wisdom is on academic performance. Be it nature, nurture or some mix. Googling around and reading the hits on "achievement gap causes" is not giving me a lot of confidence in our system. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Mon May 10, 2010 1:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Very interesting. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Mon May 10, 2010 2:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
*gasp* It can't be student's fault. |
Author: | Dash [ Mon May 10, 2010 2:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
It's crazy stuff. Personally I tend to believe it's a mix of factors. What worries me is this idea of mixing in the poor students with the higher achieving students. It would seem you'd either have half the class falling behind or half the class being limited. Not sure how you could address both efficiently that way. I'm thinking back to when I was in school we were pretty much separated by ability (broadly speaking) and then secondary things like what 2nd language you were taking or sports or music etc. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Mon May 10, 2010 2:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Rorinthas wrote: *gasp* It can't be student's fault. The argument is not that it is the student's fault, it is that they are not genetically inclined to achieve higher levels of education. Basically that your IQ drives what you are capable of learning. |
Author: | Khross [ Mon May 10, 2010 3:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Hopwin: Here's a basic human reality: Some people are better at some things than other people. Most of this difference in ability has to do with genetics. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Mon May 10, 2010 4:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Khross wrote: Hopwin: Here's a basic human reality: Some people are better at some things than other people. Most of this difference in ability has to do with genetics. I think that's what he was trying to say. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Mon May 10, 2010 5:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I think we need to apply acheivement gap educational policy to sports from k all the way up through the pros. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Mon May 10, 2010 6:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Khross wrote: Hopwin: Here's a basic human reality: Some people are better at some things than other people. Most of this difference in ability has to do with genetics. ... |
Author: | Jeryn [ Tue May 11, 2010 10:12 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Huh! On the one hand, great article. I got a masters degree in a program that got pretty heavily at times into educational theory and cultural studies in education, and everything the author said about the political leanings of progressive educators is true in my experience. the article wrote: [Ed schools] see education as a means of rectifying the injustices committed by an ignorant society, with themselves as one of the last bastions of protection for under-represented minorities. One of my grad courses discussed public schools as a venue for social activism and empowerment as a means of engaging the learner. I don't think I need to say much more on this.On the other hand, though, to say that differences in achievement are principally due to cognitive differences seems to me to be just as much of an oversimplification as the other theories. Take a brilliant child and give them absolutely no scaffolding whatsoever, and I'm betting what you wind up with is a behavior problem, not a high achiever. It's not like you can pick out any one particular favorite issue and say "that's the one!" |
Author: | Dash [ Tue May 11, 2010 10:30 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Yeah it's the whole nature nurture debate. To be fair he doesn't put a number on it but uses terms and descriptors like "mostly", "primarily" or "in large part". I think the cognitive ability will dictate your potential and the ease of learning. But as you say put a brilliant kid in an apathetic home life with horrible teachers and then a below average kid with a good work ethic and parents and teachers that care and you'll have unsurprising results. A lot of the doctrinaire liberals I talk to seem to be falling on the side of nature when we talk about that subject. To the degree where they basically claim having a kid is fire and forget, very little you do as a parent influences them unless it's really extreme. Although they deny it when it comes to this subject, of course. I take a middle of the road approach. I can live with "mostly" genetic. Mostly could be 51%. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Tue May 11, 2010 12:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I wonder if your observations about your liberal conversants' predilection towards nature in nature vs. nurture has any causal links to the gay debate? As in, they're being driven towards nature rather than nurture as they fall back on "it's who they are, they were born that way!" in the face of their opponents maintaining it's a choice. |
Author: | Dash [ Tue May 11, 2010 12:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
It coincides with a lot of things, hadnt thought of the gay debate but yeah that fits .... I usually see it as fitting into the "we dont want to be responsible for anything" syndrome a lot of them have. i.e. let the government take care of everything, if something is wrong with them or they fail they are a victim of something. If you believe in pure nature, you're pretty well absolved of any parental responsibility as I see it. Then you can look for some condition to blame any failure on, ADD, depression etc. Achievement gap though is really thorny for liberals to navigate. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Tue May 11, 2010 1:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I'm conservative and I believe that genetics dictates a large portion of who we are such as sexuality, intelligence, etc. Behavior can be created via nurturing but your basic make-up is driven by the pairings of genes. |
Author: | Dash [ Tue May 11, 2010 2:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
I would agree with that Hopwin but I wouldnt take it to this extreme: Quote: Other than making sure your kid doesn't get run over by a truck and knows how to cut a steak properly there is little you will do that will make a permanent lasting effect on your child.
... Absent unspeakable emotional damage and abuse heaped upon a person (and the evidence is that kind of abuse can actually chemically change a person and really make a new person) - then the things you think you've taught your child will turn out to be just the window dressing of the person that you made with your genes and not much more. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Tue May 11, 2010 2:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Dash wrote: I would agree with that Hopwin but I wouldnt take it to this extreme: Quote: Other than making sure your kid doesn't get run over by a truck and knows how to cut a steak properly there is little you will do that will make a permanent lasting effect on your child. ... Absent unspeakable emotional damage and abuse heaped upon a person (and the evidence is that kind of abuse can actually chemically change a person and really make a new person) - then the things you think you've taught your child will turn out to be just the window dressing of the person that you made with your genes and not much more. Agreed. Genetics may limit your potential but it is still the responsibility of the parents to make sure that child lives up to that potential. |
Author: | Jeryn [ Tue May 11, 2010 3:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Yup. The achievement gap is a measurable quantity by the time children even enter school. There are all kinds of statistical data about percentages of children who begin kindergarten already knowing how to read and how to do basic mathematics, and how there are consistent correlations between those kids and the presence of various forms of scaffolding at home. They're from homes with parents who read to them, from homes with computers and Internet access in them, etc. If someone plunks a kid down in a playpen with a couple toys for hours while they proceed to sit on the couch and watch Judge Judy and munch on cheetos, putting that kid in school with someone whose parents actually actively engaged in learning with their kids is not going to magically fix the discrepancy. The flip side of that of course, underscored by the author, is that all the parental involvement in the world will make a great student, but it will never impart natural ability that will make that same level of attainment easier for the other kid. Unspoken in this debate is that our bar for achievement is just disturbingly low (granted, that's a purely subjective opinion), perhaps due to the fact that we're trying to use education as a social equalizer - we view it as part of our cultural imperative to provide equality of opportunity. We want everyone to feel like all roads are open to them. So, what we try to do is ensure that what we're conveying is something that can be achieved by, well, more and more people because we're obsessed with making sure no one's failing. The achievement gap is likely more pronounced than what we observe, because our curriculum isn't remotely as rigorous as it could be. |
Author: | Dash [ Tue May 11, 2010 7:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Jeryn wrote: If someone plunks a kid down in a playpen with a couple toys for hours while they proceed to sit on the couch and watch Judge Judy and munch on cheetos, putting that kid in school with someone whose parents actually actively engaged in learning with their kids is not going to magically fix the discrepancy. It's almost a double whammy too because any parent not involved enough to do more than plop a kid in front of the tv all day every day is likely passing on crappy genes too =p |
Author: | Elmarnieh [ Tue May 11, 2010 7:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Why is your name in red Dash - are you in trouble or just itchy? |
Author: | Lydiaa [ Tue May 11, 2010 8:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Dash wrote: It's almost a double whammy too because any parent not involved enough to do more than plop a kid in front of the tv all day every day is likely passing on crappy genes too =p Actually it's tripple as those who act like that are usually younger single parents who lack the maturity and social background than those who chose to have it later in life. |
Author: | Dash [ Wed May 12, 2010 6:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Achievement Gap |
Quadruple whammy if they are low income and have limited resources and multiple kids! Elmarnieh wrote: Why is your name in red Dash - are you in trouble or just itchy? You could categorize it as in trouble yeah |
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