The Glade 4.0

Does the biological structure of our brains program us to believe in God? Recent advances in "neurotheology" have even prompted some scientists to propose they can induce the kind of holy visions of prophets, even in those who have never experienced religious belief.

Dr Michael Persinger of Laurentian University, Canada, has devised a special helmet that uses electromagnetic fields to induce electrical changes in the brain's temporal lobes, which are linked with religious belief.

So confident is he that God is all in the mind, or the brain at least, that Dr Persinger claims he can induce mystical feelings in a majority of those willing to don his Transcranial Magnetic Stimulator.

So the BBC Science series Horizon took up the challenge by putting his hat to the ultimate test: could he get arch-sceptic and militant atheist Prof Richard Dawkins to start believing in God by electrically massaging his temporal lobes?

Prof Dawkins, author of A Devil's Chaplain, was the ideal candidate for the latest test of whether science can now explain away religion, given his famously virulent views on religion, attacking it as a "virus of the mind" and an "infantile regression".

The experiment is based on the recent finding that some sufferers from temporal lobe epilepsy, a neurological disorder caused by chaotic electrical discharges in the temporal lobes of the brain, seem to experience devout hallucinations that bear a striking resemblance to the mystical experiences of holy figures such as St Paul and Moses.

This theory received a recent boost from Prof Gregory Holmes, a paediatric neurologist at Dartmouth Medical School, who claims that one of the principal founders of the Seventh Day Adventist Movement, Ellen White, in fact suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy.

She was seen as divinely inspired as a result of her religious visions. The new claim that her visions were, in fact, a result of a brain disorder could undermine the basis of a religious movement followed by more than 12 million people worldwide.

If strong religious feelings are no less a part of brain function than those linked with hunger and sex, the ultimate test would be to summon up mystical and religious beliefs experimentally. Indeed, it would actually be in Prof Dawkins's interests to experience religion for the first time under Dr Persinger's helmet.

After all, this would prove that mystical visions could at last be controlled by science and were no longer just at the mercy of a supernatural entity.

Unfortunately, during the experiment, while Prof Dawkins had some strange experiences and tinglings, none of them prompted him to take up any new faith. "It was a great disappointment," he said. "Though I joked about the possibility, I of course never expected to end up believing in anything supernatural. But I did hope to share some of the feelings experienced by religious mystics when contemplating the mysteries of life and the cosmos."

Dr Persinger has explained away the failure of this Transcranial Magnetic Stimulator. Before donning the helmet, Prof Dawkins had scored low on a psychological scale measuring proneness to temporal lobe sensitivity.

Recent studies on identical and fraternal twin pairs raised apart suggest that 50 per cent of our religious interests are influenced by genes. It seems Prof Dawkins is genetically predisposed not to believe.

19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

It would prove that god (or gods) is a human made concept, as different religious upbringing experience different things. (e.g. athiests just gets tingling feelings rather than experience spirituality).

It would also bring into question, previous religious experiences had by some and link that to a chemical imbalance of the brain.

To take it a step further in regards to christianity, it proves that some people are genetically unable to accept Jesus's saving. The implications are endless.

I have read what Rynar said. But that’s along the lines of believing in intelligent design… those who are completely faithful will disregard new information and list it under something god does anyways. There are still many who believe the earth is a couple of thousand years old, even after we proved it with carbon dating.

The implications I’m talking about is not just about god. I’m talking spirituality. I’m talking ghosts, telepathy, precognition, out of body experiences, etc… are all experienced through same mechanism. I’m talking all major religions sharing the same genetic pre-disposition to religious experiences, not just Christianity, but Islam, wiccan, Jew, Hindu, Buddhism… the list goes on.

Yes it doesn’t disprove that there is a god (as you can’t prove a negative), but it certainly proves that 1) religious/spiritual experiences are a chemical/electromagnetic balance and 2) it is conjured up by the person’s own mind.

Well... it MIGHT argue that if it were so 'easy' to induce a religious experience and can be unlocked by human science, it can't really be that supernatural in origin. Surely God could create a 'hackproof' brain.



My thoughts go a completely different direction with this though. What if it were used in the interrogation of religious terrorists? If you could convince someone who was fanatical that now God wanted them to reveal all.....

I'm a sick sick puppy though.

19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

That seems rather spurious reasoning when you compare it to your claim " 2) it is conjured up by the person’s own mind."

Which denotes that if the sensation can be duplicated then the sensation's apparent source does not exist (since the sensationw as conjured - ie created by magic and not reality).

This hinges, I believe erroneously, on the notion that a God who wants people to know Him would want to hide Himself, opposed to wanting the inquisitive minds He gave us to continue to find our way to Him as our grasp and understanding of the universe He created grows.

19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

Lydiaa, as this thread already shows. Regardless of what information is available, there will always be people who need the comfort and security of faith in some supernatural being.

Sure it might sway a few who are already on the fence, but overall I don't think it will change much in peoples religious views.

Lydiaa, as this thread already shows. Regardless of what information is available, there will always be people who need the comfort and security of faith in some supernatural being.

Sure it might sway a few who are already on the fence, but overall I don't think it will change much in peoples religious views.

Not sure what you mean by that.

If a sensation can be duplicated under controlled circumstances, then the sensation's apparent source exsists. (in this case the electromagnetic thingy). Thus any extra sources either can not exsist or exsists across the board. (other wise there would be a change in results which should be detected.)

The apparent source in this case is a chemical/electromagnetic 'imbalance'.

Now keep in mind I'm not saying that god doesnt exsist (I am agnostic after all), however this implicates ALL 'supernatural' experiences. By being able to replicate these experiences, we've shown that these experiences are nothing more than waken dreams of a sort experienced by an individual. Personally to me, it invalidates organised religion as a whole...

As to your reality comment. It is a reality in that it is created by a measurable imbalance, but not a reality in that a specific god wanted you to experience it. Because by accepting that a specific god did this to you, you'll either have to accept that same god doing it for someone of another religion, or that other gods are doing the same thing to their own followers.

Lydiaa, as this thread already shows. Regardless of what information is available, there will always be people who need the comfort and security of faith in some supernatural being.

Sure it might sway a few who are already on the fence, but overall I don't think it will change much in peoples religious views.

Except that it does no such thing. All you're doing is showing that you can replicate the physical sensations when you purposefully design a device to do it. It doesn't explain at all what stimulates these experiences when you're not in the laboratory.

It certainly does not explain why that portion of the brain exists or what causes it to react in the regular world.

So no, you do not have to accept every other god because of this experience, nor does it invalidate organized religion. This is what you want to conclude from it.

If a sensation can be duplicated under controlled circumstances, then the sensation's apparent source exists. (in this case the electromagnetic thingy). Thus any extra sources either can not exist or exists across the board. (other wise there would be a change in results which should be detected.)

(If the extra source did exist then) By accepting that a specific god did this to you, you'll either have to accept that same god doing it for someone of another religion, or that other gods are doing the same thing to their own followers.