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Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3024 |
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Author: | Dash [ Sun May 23, 2010 8:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
As the US moves more towards the European social benefits model, the Europeans look for ways to stop their system from collapsing. Is this a surprise to anyone? We've been hearing this is coming for years. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/world ... anted=1&hp Spoiler: |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Sun May 23, 2010 8:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Quote: Europeans have benefited from low military spending, protected by NATO and the American nuclear umbrella. There you have it, folks. They've cut defense and cut defense for 60 years and now there's very little defense left to be cut. You can't pay for social progrms that way. You just eventually end up with a crippled military that can't be cut anymore, a social welfare pig that keeps growing, an aging population that's learned life is supposed to be all about taking it easy ont he government dime, and an ally that's sick and tired of paying for your defense. |
Author: | RangerDave [ Sun May 23, 2010 12:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I think the idea that Euros don't spend much on the military is quite exaggerated: Wikipedia wrote: US = $548,531,000,000 (4.0% of GDP) EU (total) = $254,633,000,000 (1.4% of GDP) China = $63,643,000,000 (2.0% of GDP) Russia = $38,238,000,000 (3.5% of GDP) Obviously, they could raise their spending as a % of GDP, but in raw dollars, they're spending 4 times as much as the Chinese and almost 7 times as much as the Russians. And compared to pretty much anywhere else in the world (Brazil = $15.5 billion, Iran = $6 billion, Pakistan = $4 billion, Nigeria = $1.2 billion) they're outspending other countries by incredible amounts. I mean jeez, they're spending more than 40 times as much as the big, bad Iranians! So, by really any comparative standard, the Euros spend vast amounts of money on their militaries. It's just that US spending is so huge that we make everyone look cheap. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Sun May 23, 2010 2:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
RangerDave wrote: I think the idea that Euros don't spend much on the military is quite exaggerated: Wikipedia wrote: US = $548,531,000,000 (4.0% of GDP) EU (total) = $254,633,000,000 (1.4% of GDP) China = $63,643,000,000 (2.0% of GDP) Russia = $38,238,000,000 (3.5% of GDP) Obviously, they could raise their spending as a % of GDP, but in raw dollars, they're spending 4 times as much as the Chinese and almost 7 times as much as the Russians. And compared to pretty much anywhere else in the world (Brazil = $15.5 billion, Iran = $6 billion, Pakistan = $4 billion, Nigeria = $1.2 billion) they're outspending other countries by incredible amounts. I mean jeez, they're spending more than 40 times as much as the big, bad Iranians! So, by really any comparative standard, the Euros spend vast amounts of money on their militaries. It's just that US spending is so huge that we make everyone look cheap. No, they really are not. The EU/NATO collectively is comparable in size to the U.S. in terms of land area and population (in the sense of being in the same category of size) yet it spends less than half, collectively, of what the U.S. does. This is, in fact, why it complains about unilateral U.S. action; it wants the U.S. to provide the forces but submit them to everyone else's command getting just one national vote in how they are used. The same is true of Canada but to a much lesser degree since it has a far smaller population and military. This is most obvious in terms of naval forces; the U.S. has 10 nuclear powered supercarriers and their associated battle groups. Europe should have at least 4, but in fact it has NO supercarriers, and only one full-sized carrier in comission (as in, capable of operating non-VSTOL aircraft), and not a single cruiser comapred to 22 cruisers for the U.S. This is partly because the European defence budget is split among numerous countries but the real reason is that Europe expects to have U.S. carriers present if it needs them, all the while castigating us if we use them in ways they don't care for. As for a comparison, raw dollar numbers are rather pointless because Russian, Chinese, and other servicement form the nations you cite are paid far, far less, and they use less modern, cheaper weapons in far greater proportions. Although the USSR tank swarm and the Chinese human wave ae things of the past, they ultimately still rely on cheap stuff in greater numbers and simply spend less on keeping either the soldier or his weapon or vehicle alive compared to either Europe or the U.S. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Sun May 23, 2010 2:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the low birth rate, not the socialism. If they were still running the birth rate of the 50s and 60s there would be no problems with the social programs. That definitely feeds into the military too, they have less young people to put into their armies. That's not new either, a major reason France lost in WWII was their relatively low birthrate for the time. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Sun May 23, 2010 3:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Xequecal wrote: It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the low birth rate, not the socialism. If they were still running the birth rate of the 50s and 60s there would be no problems with the social programs. If they didn't have the social programs, the low birth rate would be no problem. |
Author: | Müs [ Sun May 23, 2010 4:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Xequecal wrote: It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the low birth rate, not the socialism. If they were still running the birth rate of the 50s and 60s there would be no problems with the social programs. If they didn't have the social programs, the low birth rate would be no problem. Yeah, but what would their quality of life be like without the social programs? |
Author: | Xequecal [ Sun May 23, 2010 5:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Xequecal wrote: It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the low birth rate, not the socialism. If they were still running the birth rate of the 50s and 60s there would be no problems with the social programs. If they didn't have the social programs, the low birth rate would be no problem. Sure it would. It would just be a different problem, namely the older people who either couldn't or chose not to save will be dying in the street. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Sun May 23, 2010 5:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Xequecal wrote: Arathain Kelvar wrote: Xequecal wrote: It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the low birth rate, not the socialism. If they were still running the birth rate of the 50s and 60s there would be no problems with the social programs. If they didn't have the social programs, the low birth rate would be no problem. Sure it would. It would just be a different problem, namely the older people who either couldn't or chose not to save will be dying in the street. Anyone have some statistics on how many old people "died in the street" prior to the Social Security program? |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Sun May 23, 2010 7:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Xequecal wrote: It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the low birth rate, not the socialism. If they were still running the birth rate of the 50s and 60s there would be no problems with the social programs. That definitely feeds into the military too, they have less young people to put into their armies. That's not new either, a major reason France lost in WWII was their relatively low birthrate for the time. No it wasn't. Who told you this? The main reasons the French lost were that the BEF and a large amount of French forces had to be evacuated after being cut off by the unexpected German Ardennes offensive, followed by having the worthless Maginot line outflanked, followed in turn by Italian entry into the war. The low French birthrate and overall population forced France to mobilize most of its young adult male population which would have been a serious problem in a long campaign but as it happened the issue was decided before that became an issue. The French forces actually outnumbered the Wehrmacht 6 million to 5.4 million before counting Allied troops anyhow. In any case, large populations aren't needed for proper defense these days. Even China has only a 2 million man active army. What's needed is less cheap-ass defence with smaller, less-capable systems being used to save money and more training for the military that does exist. If they were spending more on training we wouldn't have stories of NATO troops that can't patrol because they're too fat and too incompetant, thereby leaving all the hard stuff to the U.S., Britain, and Canada. Of course, maybe they want it that way because it allows them to use their militaries as another social welfare system and keeps their hands lilly-white in the eyes of their populations that want to not work and ***** about American nukes that they conveniently ignore are there so their own governments can "borrow" them. |
Author: | Ladas [ Sun May 23, 2010 7:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
There's a great trade off... have children to support the pyramid scheme and further screw the environment... Lets argue it would be better to maintain the past population growths rather than face the inevitable situation that it can't be sustained forever. /thumbs up |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Sun May 23, 2010 9:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Is friend of mine who is British and also a mild socialist seems to think that the EU will give up it's remaining national identity and become a proper fedalist nation- a United States of Europe if you will- rather than give up the wellfare state. Scary, eh? |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Sun May 23, 2010 9:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Sounds like he thinks that because he hopes that.. and why does he think combining into one nation will help? Has he explained? |
Author: | Loki [ Mon May 24, 2010 1:12 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Franz Kafka - Ein altes Blatt Quote: Es ist, als wäre viel vernachlässigt worden in der Verteidigung unseres Vaterlandes. Wir haben uns bisher nicht darum gekümmert und sind unserer Arbeit nachgegangen; die Ereignisse der letzten Zeit machen uns aber Sorgen. Ich habe eine Schusterwerkstatt auf dem Platz vor dem kaiserlichen Palast. Kaum öffne ich in der Morgendämmerung meinen Laden, sehe ich schon die Eingänge aller hier einlaufenden Gassen von Bewaffneten besetzt. Es sind aber nicht unsere Soldaten, sondern offenbar Nomaden aus dem Norden. Auf eine mir unbegreifliche Weise sind sie bis in die Hauptstadt gedrungen, die doch sehr weit von der Grenze entfernt ist. Jedenfalls sind sie also da; es scheint, daß jeden Morgen mehr werden. Ihrer Natur entsprechend lagern sie unter freiem Himmel, denn Wohnhäuser verabscheuen sie. Sie beschäftigen sich mit dem Schärfen der Schwerter, dem Zuspitzen der Pfeile, mit Übungen zu Pferde. Aus diesem stillen, immer ängstlich rein gehaltenen Platz haben sie einen wahren Stall gemacht. Wir versuchen zwar manchmal aus unseren Geschäften hervorzulaufen und wenigstens den ärgsten Unrat wegzuschaffen, aber es geschieht immer seltener, denn die Anstrengung ist nutzlos und bringt uns überdies in die Gefahr, unter die wilden Pferde zu kommen oder von den Peitschen verletzt zu werden. Sprechen kann man mit den Nomaden nicht. Unsere Sprache kennen sie nicht, ja sie haben kaum eine eigene. Untereinander verständigen sie sich ähnlich wie Dohlen. Immer wieder hört man diesen Schrei der Dohlen. Unsere Lebensweise, unsere Einrichtungen sind ihnen ebenso unbegreiflich wie gleichgültig. Infolgedessen zeigen sie sich auch gegen jede Zeichensprache ablehnend. Du magst dir die Kiefer verrenken und die Hände aus den Gelenken winden, sie haben dich doch nicht verstanden und werden dich nie verstehen. Oft machen sie Grimassen; dann dreht sich das Weiß ihrer Augen und Schaum schwillt aus ihrem Munde, doch wollen sie damit weder etwas sagen noch auch erschrecken; sie tun es, weil es so ihre Art ist. Was sie brauchen, nehmen sie. Man kann nicht sagen, daß sie Gewalt anwenden. Vor ihrem Zugriff tritt man beiseite und überläßt ihnen alles. Auch von meinen Vorräten haben sie manches gute Stück genommen. Ich kann aber darüber nicht klagen, wenn ich zum Beispiel zusehe, wie es dem Fleischer gegenüber geht. Kaum bringt er seine Waren ein, ist ihm schon alles entrissen und wird von den Nomaden verschlungen. Auch ihre Pferde fressen Fleisch; oft liegt ein Reiter neben seinem Pferd und beide nähren sich vom gleichen Fleischstück, jeder an einem Ende. Der Fleischhauer ist ängstlich und wagt es nicht, mit den Fleischlieferungen aufzuhören. Wir verstehen das aber, schießen Geld zusammen und unterstützen ihn. Bekämen die Nomaden kein Fleisch, wer weiß, was ihnen zu tun einfiele; wer weiß allerdings, was ihnen einfallen wird, selbst wenn sie täglich Fleisch bekommen. Letzthin dachte der Fleischer, er könne sich wenigstens die Mühe des Schlachtens sparen, und brachte am Morgen einen lebendigen Ochsen. Das darf er nicht mehr wiederholen. Ich lag wohl eine Stunde ganz hinten in meiner Werkstatt platt auf dem Boden und alle meine Kleider, Decken und Polster hatte ich über mir aufgehäuft, nur um das Gebrüll des Ochsen nicht zu hören, den von allen Seiten die Nomaden ansprangen, um mit den Zähnen Stücke aus seinem warmen Fleisch zu reißen. Schon lange war es still, ehe ich mich auszugehen getraute; wie Trinker um ein Weinfaß lagen sie müde um die Reste des Ochsen. Gerade damals glaubte ich den Kaiser selbst in einem Fenster des Palastes gesehen zu haben; niemals sonst kommt er in diese äußeren Gemächer, immer nur lebt er in dem innersten Garten; diesmal aber stand er, so schien es mir wenigstens, an einem der Fenster und blickte mit gesenktem Kopf auf das Treiben vor seinem Schloß. »Wie wird es werden?«, fragen wir uns alle. »Wie lange werden wir diese Last und Qual ertragen? Der kaiserliche Palast hat die Nomaden angelockt, versteht es aber nicht, sie wieder zu vertreiben. Das Tor bleibt verschlossen; die Wache, früher immer festlich ein und ausmarschierend, hält sich hinter vergitterten Fenstern. Uns Handwerkern und Geschäftsleuten ist die Rettung des Vaterlandes anvertraut; wir sind aber einer solchen Aufgabe nicht gewachsen; haben uns doch auch nie gerühmt, dessen fähig zu sein. Ein Mißverständnis ist es; und wir gehen daran zugrunde. ...ruh roh |
Author: | Xequecal [ Mon May 24, 2010 4:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
To be perfectly honest, the European Mediterranian "bailout" is not going to work. There is no way these countries can come to terms with their debt, the "bailout" is just so the big German, French, and English banks as well as politically connected individuals can foist their bad Mediterranian debt onto the taxpayers before they let it fall apart. |
Author: | Dash [ Mon May 24, 2010 6:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Rorinthas wrote: Is friend of mine who is British and also a mild socialist seems to think that the EU will give up it's remaining national identity and become a proper fedalist nation- a United States of Europe if you will- rather than give up the wellfare state. Scary, eh? I would think the opposite. If I'm Germany and I've been pushing up my retirement rates and trying to at least be (relatively) fiscally responsible about my welfare state system, and then be forced to bail out nations like Greece and Portugal etc, I'd want out of that deal. As for the low birth rate, definitely a problem, but I was under the impression they are able to mitigate it through immigration. That's another problem in and of itself of course. |
Author: | Ladas [ Tue May 25, 2010 8:57 am ] |
Post subject: | |
From an article today: Quote: Some basic economics make the Greek crisis universal. From the first quarter of 2001 to the third quarter of 2009, unit labor costs in Greece -- that's how much a worker earned for producing one unit of something -- rose 33%. That's a 33% increase in the cost of producing one gimcrack in Greece after you've deducted all the benefits of any increase in the productivity of Greek workers. In other words, if a Greek worker went from making one gizmo an hour to making two an hour and got paid twice as much for that hour, the unit-labor-cost increase would be 0%. Greek productivity did climb, at an average annual rate of about 2% from 2000 to 2010. Greece showed the same productivity growth as Germany, but wages climbed faster. According to Greece's national collective labor agreement, wages rose 6.2% in 2006, 5.4% in 2007, 6.2% in 2008 and 5.7% in 2009. The result was that Greece priced itself out of global export markets. If your unit labor costs climb 33% while those of Italy go up just 30% and those of Spain 28% -- and while Germany's costs increase just 6% and U.S. costs plummet 27% (as they did from 2001 to 2009) -- you can be sure that selling your exports will get harder. And as Greece was becoming less competitive, it was growing older. In 1971, 11.1% of Greeks were 65 or older, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. By 2001, that was up to 17%. By the end of 2009, 18.7%. The OECD takes its estimates out all the way to 2050. By 2031, 25% of Greeks will be 65 or older. By 2050, the figure is likely to close in on a third, at 32.5%. and.. Quote: To understand the full extent of Greece's debt problem you have to look beyond the current deficit problem. That's bad enough, with the net debt level forecast to rise to 120% of gross domestic product this year. But you have to add in the value of all those promises made to the retired and soon-to-be retired. Economist Jagadeesh Gokhale, in a report for the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, calculates that adding the value of the liabilities in those promises brings the level of government liabilities to 875% of GDP. Quote: Greek politicians weren't alone in promising future benefits to voters. The average burden of debt, plus liability for pension and other social-service promises, averages 434% of GDP across the European Union. France, with its relatively generous social benefits, comes in at 549%. The United Kingdom stands at 442% and Germany at 418%. Spain, which has a bigger current deficit but relatively modest promises to its citizens, shows up in Gokhale's calculations at 244%.
And the United States? By these calculations, the debt-plus-promises burden comes to 890% of GDP. Move over Greece. Who's your daddy? |
Author: | Khross [ Tue May 25, 2010 9:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Ladas: It's actually worse than that ... |
Author: | Hopwin [ Tue May 25, 2010 9:31 am ] |
Post subject: | |
I am sorry, I am still stunned by the concept of a "national collective labor agreement". |
Author: | Ladas [ Tue May 25, 2010 9:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Khross wrote: Ladas: It's actually worse than that ... I know. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Tue May 25, 2010 9:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
I'm strongly suspecting that to get to 890% of GDP they're calculating that Social Security will pay 100%, when even SS says that they won't. |
Author: | Ladas [ Tue May 25, 2010 10:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Xequecal wrote: I'm strongly suspecting that to get to 890% of GDP they're calculating that Social Security will pay 100%, when even SS says that they won't. Did you at least feel the wind move your hair or hear the whoosh? |
Author: | Ladas [ Tue May 25, 2010 10:12 am ] |
Post subject: | |
But don't worry Xequecal, with POGO promised void, our government will make up sure we live up to and surpass that 890% target. |
Author: | Stathol [ Tue May 25, 2010 11:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Europeans Fear Crisis Threatens Liberal Benefits |
Loki wrote: Franz Kafka - Ein altes Blatt [...] ...ruh roh Translation: Spoiler: |
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