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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:18 am 
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You should read the whole thing, I could probably have excerpted another 4 or 5 paragraphs but this gives you the meat of it:

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/origina ... sians.html

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When college presidents and academic administrators pay their usual obeisance to "diversity" you know they are talking first and foremost about race. More specifically, they are talking about blacks. A diverse college campus is understood as one that has a student body that -- at a minimum -- is 5 to 7 percent black (i.e., equivalent to roughly half the proportion of blacks in the general population). A college or university that is only one, two, or three percent black would not be considered "diverse" by college administrators regardless of how demographically diverse its student body might be in other ways. The blacks in question need not be African Americans -- indeed at many of the most competitive colleges today, including many Ivy League schools, an estimated 40-50 percent of those categorized as black are Afro-Caribbean or African immigrants, or the children of such immigrants.

...

Asians, unlike blacks and Hispanics, receive no boost in admissions. Indeed, the opposite is often the case, as the quota-like mentality that leads college administrators to conclude they may have "too many" Asians. Despite the much lower number of Asians in the general high-school population, high-achieving Asian students -- those, for instance, with SAT scores in the high 700s -- are much more numerous than comparably high-achieving blacks and Hispanics, often by a factor of ten or more. Thinking as they do in racial balancing and racial quota terms, college admissions officers at the most competitive institutions almost always set the bar for admitting Asians far above that for Hispanics and even farther above that for admitting blacks.


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While almost all college administrators and college admissions officers at the most elite institutions think in racial balancing and racial quota-like terms when they assemble their student body, they almost always deny this publically in a blizzard of rhetoric about a more far-flung "diversity." Indeed, there is probably no other area where college administrators are more likely to lie or conceal the truth of what they are doing than in the area of admissions and race.

Most elite universities seem to have little interest in diversifying their student bodies when it comes to the numbers of born-again Christians from the Bible belt, students from Appalachia and other rural and small-town areas, people who have served in the U.S. military, those who have grown up on farms or ranches, Mormons, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, lower-middle-class Catholics, working class "white ethnics," social and political conservatives, wheelchair users, married students, married students with children, or older students first starting out in college after raising children or spending several years in the workforce. Students in these categories are often very rare at the more competitive colleges, especially the Ivy League. While these kinds of people would surely add to the diverse viewpoints and life-experiences represented on college campuses, in practice "diversity" on campus is largely a code word for the presence of a substantial proportion of those in the "underrepresented" racial minority groups.


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Consistent with other studies, though in much greater detail, Espenshade and Radford show the substantial admissions boost, particularly at the private colleges in their study, which Hispanic students get over whites, and the enormous advantage over whites given to blacks. They also show how Asians must do substantially better than whites in order to reap the same probabilities of acceptance to these same highly competitive private colleges. On an "other things equal basis," where adjustments are made for a variety of background factors, being Hispanic conferred an admissions boost over being white (for those who applied in 1997) equivalent to 130 SAT points (out of 1600), while being black rather than white conferred a 310 SAT point advantage. Asians, however, suffered an admissions penalty compared to whites equivalent to 140 SAT points.

The box students checked off on the racial question on their application was thus shown to have an extraordinary effect on a student's chances of gaining admission to the highly competitive private schools in the NSCE database. To have the same chances of gaining admission as a black student with an SAT score of 1100, an Hispanic student otherwise equally matched in background characteristics would have to have a 1230, a white student a 1410, and an Asian student a 1550. Here the Espenshade/Radford results are consistent with other studies, including those of William Bowen and Derek Bok in their book The Shape of the River, though they go beyond this influential study in showing both the substantial Hispanic admissions advantage and the huge admissions penalty suffered by Asian applicants. Although all highly competitive colleges and universities will deny that they have racial quotas -- either minimum quotas or ceiling quotas -- the huge boosts they give to the lower-achieving black and Hispanic applicants, and the admissions penalties they extract from their higher-achieving Asian applicants, clearly suggest otherwise.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:25 am 
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I am an American and being a homo sapien I have African ancestry.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:36 am 
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Whatever. I'm a Cock-asian.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:53 am 
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I thought that was pretty crazy, having to get a 1550 out of 1600 just to compete on the same level with someone who scored an 1100. Based purely on race.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:59 am 
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Dash wrote:
I thought that was pretty crazy, having to get a 1550 out of 1600 just to compete on the same level with someone who scored an 1100. Based purely on race.
This is old news; however, individuals of a certain political persuasion will maintain, regardless of actual data, that it is the white and/or rich guy who needs the 1100.

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Last edited by Khross on Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:01 am 
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I have nothing nice to say about this topic. I graduated from Mississippi State University and saw lots of things during my 5 years of college there that were completely unfair, mostly involving football players and their cheating "overlooked" even when pointed out to the professors.
There was even a student while I was there who failed a test and called the NAACP to investigate, claiming that he was being discriminated against and was failed just because he was black. Fortunately, the NAACP found that he failed legitimately and they gave the student a warning for filing a false claim, but the fact that even happens is outrageous.
As a single mom, I constantly had to compete for the same resources as the "minorities" when it came to stuff like help buying books and housing and things like that....let me tell you, its not fair.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:17 am 
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Hasn't been fair since the late early 70s. Fair is not the goal. Getting black folks into the mainstream American lifestyle has been and will continue to be the goal. This is the thing most folks don't understand about affirmative action and similar programs.

Fair is not the goal. Long road change of society is the goal.

Creating opportunities, however undeserved, for the most troubled subset of the American people, giving them enough of the dream to hang onto that they actually have something to lose in the hopes that having something to lose will modify their behavior to the point they become more productive citizens and lead a significant portion of their own out of the entitlement communities.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him and his family for his lifetime.

Everyone else gets hurt, gets treated unfairly along the way. Their market share of the dream is significant enough. It isn't about individuals, it is about demographics and population groups.

I have been personally negatively impacted by these programs at several points in my life. I don't like them either. I just understand the bigger picture logic behind them.

The by-products and results of this system have ranged from fantastic to horrible so far. In addition to the legions of people it has given a better start to life, it has created a new type of entitlement community where instead of welfare and charity people feel entitled to education and jobs.

LadyKate, blame the Alumni for the sports programs cheaters and education skate through fools. That is not the federal government. That is the good old boys networks wanting their team to win.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:24 am 
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The goals are not supported by the implementation, but enough of the population refuses to acknowledge the failure (to the point of attacking those who point it out) and instead advocate increasing the entitlements hoping more will cause the shift desired... its a version of the same deficit spending plan.. drink yoruself sober.


Last edited by Ladas on Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:11 am 
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Micheal, I get what you are saying, and for the big picture it seems logical. However, in the 16 years that I have lived in Mississippi, all that big picture theory is doing for the blacks down here is promoting a sense of entitlement and imho, only making the situation worse.
Perhaps things are much different elsewhere.
I also agree with you that the sports program is run by the good ole' boys network....I've had neighbors who couldn't even spell their last name but sailed through classes and lived off the under the table financial "gifts" from the alumni and driving brand new luxury vehicles while I worked my *** off trying to make ends meet and pass my classes at the same time.
Life's not fair, I guess.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:50 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Micheal, I get what you are saying, and for the big picture it seems logical. However, in the 16 years that I have lived in Mississippi, all that big picture theory is doing for the blacks down here is promoting a sense of entitlement and imho, only making the situation worse.
Perhaps things are much different elsewhere.

They're not.

The publicly stated intended effect of "social equality mandated by the Government" hasn't occurred in the ~50 years it's been attempted. The unintended consequence of the creation of widespread feelings of entitlement and demand for more, however, has fostered quite the opposite effect - which could lead one to believe that the "publicly stated intent" may be something of a smokescreen for the real intent.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:03 am 
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Micheal wrote:
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him and his family for his lifetime.


I prefer:

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Dash wrote:
I thought that was pretty crazy, having to get a 1550 out of 1600 just to compete on the same level with someone who scored an 1100. Based purely on race.
This is old news; however, individuals of a certain political persuasion will maintain, regardless of actual data, that it is the which guy who needs the 1100.



Rich guy I guess you mean. Yes someone is trying to tell me that:

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What are you going to do about all those brown people who are getting screwed because they don't have access to all the resources that Asian and non brown people typically have?

How much resources do you need to have decent healthcare, security, quality educational opportunities and vocational training, housing subsidies, etc.


I'm assuming "resources" essentially means money and that he's saying Asians have more money than whites, who have more than hispanics, who have more than blacks. Derp.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:56 pm 
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White guy, I think, RD.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:58 pm 
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It's the "white and/or rich" guy ...

Talk about brain moving faster than fingers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:40 pm 
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I'd say that "diversity punishment" could be good for those it "punishes" and bad for those it "protects".

Sorta like survival of the fittest, those folks who overcome obstacles when others have artificial advantages will end up stronger just by breaking even, and those who allow others to make excuses for them will NEED excuses.

Outside a totalitarian government takeover, excuses don't count in the real world and performance is where it's at - and the person who learns to overcome will be the better for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:42 pm 
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Taskiss:

You might be on to something ... maybe ... perhaps ...

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
I'd say that "diversity punishment" could be good for those it "punishes" and bad for those it "protects".

Sorta like survival of the fittest, those folks who overcome obstacles when others have artificial advantages will end up stronger just by breaking even, and those who allow others to make excuses for them will NEED excuses.

Outside a totalitarian government takeover, excuses don't count in the real world and performance is where it's at - and the person who learns to overcome will be the better for it.


This is obviously true. The system, as it is, creates and perpetuates a form of "soft slavery" in which there is a permanent underclass who "knows" it can't get ahead without their sustenance being handed to them, or at least partially subsidised, by a class of their "betters". It teaches them to forever be dependant, and to shun self-reliance. For those forced to pay for the "leg up" for those who "can't do for themselves" it teaches them that they must do it on their own, and that only over-achievement and true merit will lead to their success and prosperity. It also teaches those who pay that those who receive are not as, "gifted, intelligent, worthy, good, responsible, stable, educated, ect." and therefore must be handled with kid gloves.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:04 pm 
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It also installs claims of racism as a permanent fixture. If there is racism, then minorities get benefits. Subsidizing something ensures it will remain longer than it otherwise would on it's own. It just drives a wedge between people and frustrates the hell out of me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:05 pm 
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omg I’m being oppressed! Where’s my pro-bono lawyer and my millions of dollars?!?!??!?!?

Oh wait.. I’m not a citizen.. DRAT!~ :lol:

LK there is still a place untouched by this, it's just a little far and in the middle of nowhere ;) I'm really happy that it is against the law to put race on any tests or application systems, not that my name doesn’t give it away or anything (shakes fist at single syllable surnames). Of course this also means our universities are over run with Asians… we must be oppressing the rest of the people and taking over things one country at a time >.> :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:10 pm 
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The term "artificial advantage" is hilarious.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Monte wrote:
The term "artificial advantage" is hilarious.


Because its true?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:30 pm 
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No, because it's hilarious.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:41 pm 
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So you're contending that a lower SAT requirement, for instance, is not an advantage over a person with a higher SAT requirement?

You define words funny. It's amazing you can communicate and function in society at all. There must be a lot of misunderstandings when people try to converse with you, because it sure *sounds* like you're speaking English, when really you're speaking an entire language all your own where the words just sound like English words, but mean entirely different things to you and only you.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:50 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
You define words funny. It's amazing you can communicate and function in society at all. There must be a lot of misunderstandings when people try to converse with you, because it sure *sounds* like you're speaking English, when really you're speaking an entire language all your own where the words just sound like English words, but mean entirely different things to you and only you.


Maybe he's like that Japanese actor, Ken Watanabe, who just learns English words phonetically but doesn't know what they actually mean...

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Last edited by DFK! on Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:54 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
So you're contending that a lower SAT requirement, for instance, is not an advantage over a person with a higher SAT requirement?

You define words funny. It's amazing you can communicate and function in society at all. There must be a lot of misunderstandings when people try to converse with you, because it sure *sounds* like you're speaking English, when really you're speaking an entire language all your own where the words just sound like English words, but mean entirely different things to you and only you.



I think this is one of the reasons he winds up stabbing so many people he "teaches".

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