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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:16 pm 
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Would have gone in entertainment but it would have ended up in here any way.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jjmno ... ore-377038


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“We’re sort of putting a slightly different spin on Steve Rogers,” said Joe Johnston, whose past directing credits include “Jurassic Park III” and “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. “He’s a guy that wants to serve his country but he’s not a flag-waver. We’re reinterpretating sort of what the comic book version of Steve Rogers was.” …

“He wants to serve his country, but he’s not this sort of jingoistic American flag-waver,” Johnston said. “He’s just a good person. We make a point of that in the script: Don’t change who you are once you go from Steve Rogers to this super-soldier, you have to stay who you are inside, that’s really what’s important more than your strength and everything. It’ll be interesting and fun to put a different spin on the character and one that the fans are really going to appreciate.” …


Guess that flag on his uniform technically does not wave.

Quote:
For Johnston, the imperative is artistic one, not a commercial one. He wants a character that’s more complicated than a flag and a movie that entertains without borders.

“Yeah and it’s also the idea that this is not about America so much as it is about the spirit of doing the right thing,” the director said. “It’s an international cast and an international story. It’s about what makes America great and what make the rest of the world great too.”


We are all great too!!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:20 pm 
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And in related comic book Movies Captain Britain will have a IRA patch on his shoulder, Black Panther will not represent an African nation, and Dr Doom will represent a broader coalition of tyrannies then just Latvaria

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Boy that doesn't bode well for the film at all.

What's disappointing is that it's not impossible in my opinion to portray someone as very patriotic but still with a broad view.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:35 pm 
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Maybe they can retcon SHIELD as the super soldier arm of the UN, and make him Captain UN.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:06 pm 
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I think they're missing the point entirely. Steve Rogers doesn't change who he is when he becomes a super-soldier. Steve Rogers embodied American values and duty when he was a scrawny kid who the Army was rejecting when he volunteered, repeatedly.

It's really quite sad how ashamed we (as a cultural zeitgeist, spearheaded by Hollywood and other prominent liberal voices) are of being Americans anymore.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Captain America is Captain America and attempts to not have him be what Old Glory embodies dooms itself to failure.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Captain America is Captain America and attempts to not have him be what Old Glory embodies dooms itself to failure.

^this without any reservation

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:42 pm 
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Spoiler:
Dear Joe Johnston,

**** you Joe Johnston, **** you in your stupid god damned ear.

I did not like Cap like some people did, but it is God Damned Captain **** America... he fought the god damned Nazi's to defend the American Dream. He was a **** Patriotic Juicer you douchebag.

I hope Stan Lee cock punches you.

Thank You,
The movie patron formerly known as looking forward to this movie.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:49 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
Language NSFW

Spoiler:
Dear Joe Johnston,

**** you Joe Johnston, **** you in your stupid god damned ear.

I did not like Cap like some people did, but it is God Damned Captain **** America... he fought the god damned Nazi's to defend the American Dream. He was a **** Patriotic Juicer you douchebag.

I hope Stan Lee cock punches you.

Thank You,
The movie patron formerly known as looking forward to this movie.

That should be a tshirt.
I would buy it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:00 pm 
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you know... I remember when they cancelled the show Jericho they organized some sort of protest by the fans to send nuts to the network...

I wonder if a protest sending Summers Eve and American flags to this asshat would get the point across... Or maybe a **** issue of the god damned comic book.

The move he is making here would be akin to having Peter Parker become a banjo player after being bitten by a radioactive spider.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:05 pm 
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I'd buy that T-Shirt too. This is nothing new for Cap though. Now, who could that angry white mob with the tea bag protest sign be symbolizing. Hmm...

http://www.publiusforum.com/2010/02/08/ ... nd-racist/

Spoiler:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:35 pm 
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Captain America was and should remain a symbol of all that is good about America, be proud to be an American and stand for the American Ideals the flag stands for.

He followed his orders, but rarely blindly. He was a patriot and a fighter, more prone to a straight up fight or a rescue attempt rather than subterfuge or black ops. Then again he was usually chasing the other sides bad guys more than fighting alongside the regular troops, though he did that a time or ten.

He has even seen the worst America has to offer and fought against it on a regular basis. He has never been a love it or leave it type of guy, more of a love it and help make it better.

Not sure if I'm going to see this one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:52 pm 
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The Director wrote:
[Rogers] wants to serve his country, but he’s not this sort of jingoistic American flag-waver....Yeah and it’s also the idea that this is not about America so much as it is about the spirit of doing the right thing....It’s an international cast and an international story. It’s about what makes America great and what make the rest of the world great too.

Translation: The international box office is almost as lucrative as the domestic one these days, and the studio is worried foreigners won't go see a movie about Captain America.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Stan Lee still needs to cock punch this douchebag director.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:59 am 
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One of the things that's good about America are Americans who aren't Jingoistic flag humpers. I think folks are missing the point.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:04 am 
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Missing what point? That they are taking Captain God Damned America and making making him something that he is not supposed to be?

He is supposed to be exactly what they are saying he is not going to be.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:15 am 
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No, he isn't. See Civil War. The Jingoistic flag humper was Iron Man. Rogers was willing to stand against the government he had fought for all his life. Then he submitted to that government's laws when he realized he'd lost the people he was trying to defend.

Captain America at his best was not a blindly patriotic fool. Didn't he spend some time as an outlaw because of that conviction?


Howard Zinn, The Scourge of Nationalism wrote:
The Scourge of Nationalism
by Howard Zinn


I cannot get out of my mind the recent news photos of ordinary Americans sitting on chairs, guns on laps, standing unofficial guard on the Arizona border, to make sure no Mexicans cross over into the United States. There was something horrifying in the realization that, in this twenty-first century of what we call "civilization," we have carved up what we claim is one world into 200 artificially created entities we call "nations" and armed to apprehend or kill anyone who crosses a boundary.

Is not nationalism--that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder--one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred? These ways of thinking--cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on--have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica, and many more). But in a nation like ours--huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction--what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early. When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."

When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women, and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."

It was our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence," an American journalist declared on the eve of the Mexican War. After the invasion of Mexico began, the New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war. We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.

As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our Secretary of War, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."

Nationalism is given a special virulence when it is blessed by Providence. Today we have a President, invading two countries in four years, who believes he gets messages from God. Our culture is permeated by a Christian fundamentalism as poisonous as that of Cotton Mather. It permits the mass murder of "the other" with the same confidence as it accepts the death penalty for individuals convicted of crimes. A Supreme Court justice, Antonin Scalia, told an audience at the University of Chicago Divinity School, speaking of capital punishment: "For the believing Christian, death is no big deal."

How many times have we heard Bush and Rumsfeld talk to the troops in Iraq, victims themselves, but also perpetrators of the deaths of thousands of Iraqis, telling them that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?

Nationalist super-patriotism is not confined to Republicans. When Richard Hofstadter analyzed American presidents in his book The American Political Tradition, he found that Democratic leaders as well as Republicans, liberals as well as conservatives, invaded other countries, sought to expand U.S. power across the globe.

Liberal imperialists have been among the most fervent of expansionists, more effective in their claim to moral rectitude precisely because they are liberal on issues other than foreign policy. Theodore Roosevelt, a lover of war, and an enthusiastic supporter of the war in Spain and the conquest of the Philippines, is still seen as a Progressive because he supported certain domestic reforms and was concerned with the national environment. Indeed, he ran as President on the Progressive ticket in 1912.

Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat, was the epitome of the liberal apologist for violent actions abroad. In April of 1914, he ordered the bombardment of the Mexican coast, and the occupation of the city of Vera Cruz, in retaliation for the arrest of several U.S. sailors. He sent Marines into Haiti in 1915, killing thousands of Haitians who resisted, beginning a long military occupation of that tiny country. He sent Marines to occupy the Dominican Republic in 1916. And, after running in 1916 on a platform of peace, he brought the nation into the slaughter that was taking place in Europe in World War I, saying it was a war to "make the world safe for democracy."

In our time, it was the liberal Bill Clinton who sent bombers over Baghdad as soon as he came into office, who first raised the specter of "weapons of mass destruction" as a justification for a series of bombing attacks on Iraq. Liberals today criticize George Bush's unilateralism. But it was Clinton's Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, who told the United Nations Security Council that the U.S. would act "multilaterally when we can, unilaterally when we must."

One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on September 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.

What makes our nation immune from the normal standards of human decency?

Surely, we must renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation. We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

The poets and artists among us seem to have a clearer understanding of the limits of nationalism.

Langston Hughes (no wonder he was called before the Committee on Un-American Activities) addressed his country as follows:

You really haven't been a virgin for so long
It's ludicrous to keep up the pretext . . .
You've slept with all the big powers
In military uniforms
And you've taken the sweet life
Of all the little brown fellows . . .
Being one of the world's big vampires
Why don't you come out and say so
Like Japan, and England, and France
And all the other nymphomaniacs of power.

Henry David Thoreau, provoked by the war in Mexico and the nationalist fervor it produced, wrote: "Nations! What are nations? . . . Like insects, they swarm. The historian strives in vain to make them memorable." In our time, Kurt Vonnegut (Cat's Cradle) places nations among those unnatural abstractions he calls granfalloons, which he defines as "a proud and meaningless association of human beings."

There have always been men and women in this country who have insisted that universal standards of decent human conduct apply to our nation as to others. That insistence continues today and reaches out to people all over the world. It lets them know, like the balloons sent over the countryside by the Paris Commune in 1871, that "our interests are the same."

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:19 am 
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Zinn is a well noted ideologue. Another psuedo intellectual who cant grasp the distinction between the ideal of patriotism and how different people might use that ideal.

I associate him with Maaaaaatt Damon now by the way, I believe Damon mentioned him a few times recently.

The argument that the man who wears a costume with the elements of the US Flag and is named Captain America shouldnt be a flag waving patriot is absurd. Nothing wrong with loving your country, unless you're working for Marvel apparently.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:27 am 
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Yeah, I think I'm boycotting this one now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:41 am 
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It seems to me that American Liberals are under the mistaken assumption that Old Glory is a symbol of the government. I'm not sure why this surprises me, since they likewise have rather odd assumptions of the Stars and Bars, the Union Jack, and Don't Tread on Me.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:45 am 
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What odd assumptions about the Union Jack?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:49 am 
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Also, allow me to translate from the liberalese for everyone here. "Flag-waver" is shorthand for a jingoistic, love-it-leave-it, my-country-right-or-wrong, **** everyone else attitude. It's that attitude, not patriotism in general, that many liberals disdain.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:53 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Also, allow me to translate from the liberalese for everyone here. "Flag-waver" is shorthand for jingoistic, love-it-leave-it, my-country-right-or-wrong, **** everyone else attitude. It's that attitude, not patriotism in general, that many liberals disdain.
So it's epithet based in prejudices you cannot substantiate? By the by, you might want to re-write your definition, since Steve Rogers is definitely a "flag-waver" according to what you wrote here.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:13 am 
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Khross wrote:
So it's epithet based in prejudices you cannot substantiate?


Pretty much, though there are certainly some people who have those attitudes. Note that I never said I agreed with the conflation of flag-waving and jingoism.

Khross wrote:
By the by, you might want to re-write your definition, since Steve Rogers is definitely a "flag-waver" according to what you wrote here.


My familiarity with Cap starts in the 80s, so I can't vouch for the earlier stuff, but in the stories I read, I never really saw him expressing those attitudes. His love for America was unconditional, but he wasn't blind to the ways in which its government and/or people sometimes fail to live up to the ideals he espoused, and he certainly never seemed to have a "**** you" approach to other countries and people.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:15 am 
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Monte wrote:
No, he isn't. See Civil War.


I think you missed the entire point of the Civil War crossover if you think it follows with what the movie is going for.


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