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 Post subject: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:26 am 
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One of our local farmers had 5 cows killed by a pitbull and his buddies: http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=7109

Over the years, I've had friends who have bred pit bulls who seem friendly and I've seen all the TV shows and news articles about rescued pit bulls and all the hype about how pit bulls get a bad rap.

I don't disagree, however, with the idea of banning the breed. I've seen and heard of way too much violence from these dogs. Not totally their fault, but that doesn't stop it from happening in our neck of the woods. Seems like every thug around here owns a pit bull and you can tell they've been fighting.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:37 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
I don't disagree, however, with the idea of banning the breed. I've seen and heard of way too much violence from these dogs. Not totally their fault, but that doesn't stop it from happening in our neck of the woods. Seems like every thug around here owns a pit bull and you can tell they've been fighting.
There are no bad dogs only bad owners. Any dog can be made mean. Banning the breed will provide no solution, especially since it's not exactly 1 breed. I own 2 American Pit Bull Terriers: Hurley and Moose. They are both very affectionate, very playful, very loving dogs who like new people and new things. They are extremely well behaved. And, one thing they have over any other breed I've ever encountered is loyalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:48 am 
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Khross wrote:
There are no bad dogs only bad owners. Any dog can be made mean. Banning the breed will provide no solution, especially since it's not exactly 1 breed. I own 2 American Pit Bull Terriers: Hurley and Moose. They are both very affectionate, very playful, very loving dogs who like new people and new things. They are extremely well behaved. And, one thing they have over any other breed I've ever encountered is loyalty.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:49 am 
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LK: I agree with you. Some animals have been bred to specifically fine tune their natural aggression instincts. My dog (25lb sissy) for example is the most well-behaved sweetest dog ever but her prey-instinct (sight-hound) is so sensitive that a squirrel three houses up the street will have her charging to the end of her lead.

You can be sweet/kind/loving to a dog but you can't get instinct out of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:55 am 
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Khross wrote:
There are no bad dogs only bad owners.


I might amend that to there are no bad dog breeds. I would guess there are bad dogs, for whatever reason and not necessarily the owners fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:57 am 
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Hopwin:

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Temperament
The APBT is a breed that is loyal to friends and family, and is generally friendly towards strangers. People have been known to be afraid of them because of their bad reputations. Nonetheless, an APBT can be a very congenial pet as they have a general love of people. They do exhibit a higher percentage of dog aggression than some other breeds, and a very high prey drive toward small animals. Proper training can make the dog obedient and have a high desire to please, and socialization at an early age is a must. The breed can become dominant and destructive. According to the UKC, "aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable."[2] A study done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention showed that "pit bull type" dogs accounted for the majority of dog related fatalities in the United States between 1979 and 1996, though the study admits some limitations in its data.[7]
The American Temperament Testing Society shows a pass percentage of 86% for American Pit Bull Terriers.[8] Still, a firm, even hand and early obedience training are best. They generally have a lot of energy and high prey drive; they need exercise and stimulation in order to channel their energy properly and not become frustrated, bored, and destructive.[9]
Ironically, American Pit Bull Terriers only exhibit bad temperament with bad owners. And they are extremely smart dogs. You can teach them to not hunt, to not be aggressive, to not be defensive.

Moose, being rather larger than normal, has a pulling sled that he absolutely loves. And when it's yard work time, both of my Pit Bulls are wonderful helps. Hurley clear small sticks and branches before I mow, and she does on command. Moose loves ferrying leaves and clippings to the compost pile.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:59 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
You can be sweet/kind/loving to a dog but you can't get instinct out of them.


This has been true in my experience. I have owned a lot of dogs over my lifetime and been around a lot of different breeds...yes, the way you raise a dog has a lot to do with it, but there are some things that are innate and unless you are a very very very very attentive owner and experienced, its very easy for a dog's instincts to take over.

I have a dog that I've had for almost 5 years. She was about 6 months old when I found her eating out of garbage cans and hair falling out from mange. I have no idea what breed she is but she is black, has thick fur with a full undercoat, bushy tail, short snout and pointy ears....looks like a lab, but subtle differences like the ones I mentioned and shorter legs.
Anyway, this dog is sweet as can be. She does exactly what she is told. If you leave a taco on the floor all night she won't eat it until the next day when you tell her its ok.
If she was sleeping peacefully and a small child came by and yanked her tail or stepped on her foot, she would not react with aggression. Her natural instinct is to be submissive.
I'm good with dogs, but not THAT good! Something inside of this dog, instincts, whatever you want to call it, has determined what her temperment is going to be.

Khross: I know that ownership plays a huge role, but I do think that there are some breeds that require more experienced and knowledgeable owners and Pit Bulls are one of them. I don't think the average Joe should own a pit bull. If you know what you are doing, fine, but its not a breed that should be treated the same as a lab or a poodle.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:03 am 
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The majority of dogs are bred with a prey-instinct.

The larger breeds get a worse rap because when they are trained to be violent they can do far more damage.

I wonder how much peoples opinion of them would change if we started calling them American Bull Terriers instead of pit bulls?

Rat terriers are just as vicious, and have the same instinct, they're just substantially smaller. All terriers are, in fact.

Banning a breed of dog just because people train them to go bad is a horrible idea.

What about people that get injured by feral cats? Do we ban all cats as a result?

Training dogs to fight and guard makes them, well, trained to fight and guard.

If you ban pit bulls, everyone that fights can so easily move to another breed, while everyone that has actual pets will be punished.

German Shepards, Rots, Chows, Pinschers, the list of dogs that are used to fight and guard goes on and on.

Pit's are common now, but banning them will just make people use other breeds.

It's like deciding that too many gun crimes are committed with Winchester Revolvers.... And banning Winchester Revolvers. The people that own the legitimately will be punished, and the people misusing them will simply get a different type of gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:05 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Khross: I know that ownership plays a huge role, but I do think that there are some breeds that require more experienced and knowledgeable owners and Pit Bulls are one of them. I don't think the average Joe should own a pit bull. If you know what you are doing, fine, but its not a breed that should be treated the same as a lab or a poodle.


I would say this is completely incorrect.

Poodles require much more knowledge to train than pit bulls- In my 5 years working at a vets office (in a part of Louisiana known for it's dog fighting) I never had a problem with a single pit bull, but was bitten by over 20 different poodles and 2 labs.

Pit's are exceptionally easy to train to be loving and sweet.... They are much harder to train to be vicious, imo.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:08 am 
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Pit bulls are like muslims. They are not inherently violent or dangerous, but they can easily be made so through neglect, improper training, and fatwas.

In Nebraska we had a problem with dogs packing and killing livestock. We tied this super mean billy goat out in front of one of the barns. Next day, well, he was spread around a bit, and the local farmers went out through the area and shot any dog they saw with an injury.

There was never a problem again.

RIP Billy.


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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:10 am 
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Well, there's also the problem that any Staffordshire Terrier and most Bull Terriers are called "pit bulls" as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:11 am 
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The problem with bad owners is that they go unrecognized until their dogs do something bad. With APBTs, even something a little bad can be terrifying.

Given my preferences, you would have to have training and a license to own a dog, any dog. It should be an honored privilege, not the right that so many take it to be.

This may not seem fair to the good dog owners, but it beats the hell out of bad owners committing manslaughter or murder with their dogs.

It won't be a popular opinion, but it is mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:15 am 
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I still think that there are innate dangers in certain breeds, more so than others. I too worked in a vet clinic, and received lots of bites from lap/luxury dogs like poodles and chihuahuas but nothing serious.
I'm talking about breeds of dogs, like pit bulls, that are deadly and should not be made available to every Joe who wants one.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

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Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.

According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.

Clifton's opinions are as interesting as his statistics. For example, he says, "Pit bulls and Rottweilers are accordingly dogs who not only must be handled with special precautions, but also must be regulated with special requirements appropriate to the risk they may pose to the public and other animals, if they are to be kept at all."

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:21 am 
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LadyKate:

Your source is a bit misleading, since the data used to make those claims covers 238 dog related fatalities in 20 years.
Quote:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (2000)
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published in 2000 a study on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 1979–1998. The study found reports of 238 people killed by dogs over the 24-year period, of which "pit bull terrier" or mixes thereof were reportedly responsible for killing 76, or about 32 percent, of the people killed by dogs in the attacks identified in the study. The breed with the next-highest number of attributed fatalities was the Rottweiler and mixes thereof, with 44 fatalities or about 18 percent of the study-identified fatalities. In aggregate, pit bulls, Rottweilers, and mixes thereof were involved in about 50% of the fatalities identified over the 20-year period covered by the study, and for 67% of the DBRF reported in the final two years studied (1997–1998), concluding
"It is extremely unlikely that they [pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers] accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."[6]
The report's authors went on to say:
"Although the fatality data are concerning, one must broaden the context to consider both fatal and nonfatal bites when deciding on a course of action. ...[A] 36% increase in medically attended bites from 1986 to 1994 draws attention to the need for an effective response, including dog bite prevention programs. Because (1) fatal bites constitute less than 0.00001% of all dog bites annually, (2) fatal bites have remained relatively constant over time, whereas nonfatal bites have been increasing, and (3) fatal bites are rare at the usual political level where bite regulations are promulgated and enforced, we believe that fatal bites should not be the primary factor driving public policy regarding dog bite prevention."
The report's authors suggested that "generic non–breed-specific, dangerous dog laws can be enacted that place primary responsibility for a dog's behavior on the owner, regardless of the dog's breed. In particular, targeting chronically irresponsible dog owners may be effective."[38]
The latest CDC "Dog Bite: Fact Sheet" includes a disclaimer regarding this study, saying that
"it does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites. There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill."[39]
[edit]National Canine Research Council
Karen Delise, Founder and Director of Research, has been investigating fatal dog attacks since 1990. She is the author of two books, Fatal Dog Attacks: The Stories Behind the Statistics and The Pit Bull Placebo: The Media Myths and Politics of Canine Aggression.[40][1] Her data set extends back to the 19th century. Delise refuses to rely only on news accounts, as she and other researchers have found them to be untrustworthy, in and of themselves.[41][2] Rather, she has obtained official documents whenever they are available. She has interviewed police investigators, animal control officers and, medical examiners.[42][3] According to her results, the overwhelming majority of dogs involved in human fatalities, irrespective of breed or type, were not dogs which had been afforded the opportunity to interact with humans on a daily basis and in positive and humane ways. They were dogs obtained and kept as other than pets. Most were also poorly managed and controlled.[43][4] Any single-vector study of serious and fatal attacks will overlook the critical circumstances in these incidents that have remained constant over the decades, even as the breeds identified in attacks have changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:23 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Her natural instinct is to be submissive. I'm good with dogs, but not THAT good! Something inside of this dog, instincts, whatever you want to call it, has determined what her temperment is going to be.

It's way more likely that this is learned behavior from her time as a stray at a young age than instinct.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:29 am 
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The latest CDC "Dog Bite: Fact Sheet" includes a disclaimer regarding this study, saying that
"it does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites. There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill."


Hmmmmm.

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2009.htm
Quote:
32 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2009. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 500 U.S. cities, pit bulls led these attacks accounting for 44% (14). Pit bulls make up approximately 5% of the U.S. dog population.


Thats not 16. That's 32.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:35 am 
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http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalS ... sheet.html

You can take that up with the CDC, but you're source doesn't give me any inclination to believe it's credible. It's claiming a number of Pit Bull related deaths in 2009 equal to the 20 year statistical average for the United States plus Ontario; and the site is obviously pushing an agenda.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:41 am 
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I don't know about pushing agendas or credibility, Khross, it just looked like they were a little less vague than the CDC on their statistics.
Do you have a credible source that can take a one year period and list number of deaths by breed?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:42 am 
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Hmmm... I learned something today:

Quote:
With this breed, human-aggressiveness is rare. Until fairly recently in the APBT's breeding history, this highly undesireable trait was kept out of the breed through brutal simplicity: a dog that displayed aggression toward people was shot on the spot, no second chance. As a result of this ruthless culling, today you're more likely to encounter the opposite problem: figuring out how to restrain your dog's insistence on licking every face that goes by. However, as in all breeds, there will occasionally be a human-aggressive individual--usually, but not always, the result of backyard breeding or neglect and abuse. Owning such a dog is, to say the least, a tremendous liability. There are various degrees and causes of human-aggressiveness in dogs. Sometimes the problem is classic dominance-aggression, and it can be nipped in the bud at an early age if you appropriately re-establish your dominance. In any case, at the first sign of a problem, you should immediately seek expert help from a behaviorist or trainer with experience specifically with this breed. For your own safety, the safety of your neighbors, and for the sake of the breed, you should not hesitate to euthanize such a dog if necessary.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:48 am 
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Khross' dogs are an early Doombot experiment?

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:50 am 
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Monte:

No, actually. American Pit Bull Terriers are labor dogs. They like to work and enjoy physical exertion. A good day to them is one that starts with food, some love, and a whole bunch of yard work. They get positively happy when I say, "Let's go do the yard."

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:52 am 
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I think the real solution is to exempt from prosecution or liability anyone who shoots a stray dog on their property, or which approaches them in a threatening manner.

I've had quite a few dogs come running at me while I;ve been jogging, and one approached my wife and I with our daughter a week or two ago. It had no tag and it didn't seem friendly although it wasn't exactly hostile. None of these have been pit bulls, but as soon as I see one I start coming up with a course of action in case it attacks.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:27 am 
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I keep two water bottles on my bike when I ride, one for drinking and one for squirting in dogs eyes that decide to challenge me on the road. Should the water fail, cycling shoes aren't exactly soft and forgiving.

But I disagree with the notion of banning a species of dog because people can't be trusted with their responsibility. Otherwise, we should clearly ban reproducing.


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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:29 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
I don't disagree, however, with the idea of banning the breed. I've seen and heard of way too much violence from these dogs. Not totally their fault, but that doesn't stop it from happening in our neck of the woods. Seems like every thug around here owns a pit bull and you can tell they've been fighting.


I do. There have been calls to ban all the breeds NephyrS mentioned:German Shepards, Rots, Chows, Pinschers.
Banning "pit bulls' would spread across at least five different breeds: American bulldog, Staffordshire Terrier, American Staffordshire, Bull Terrier, and American Pit Bull Terriers (although, this is not even a "breed" according to the CKC).

Sweden is going to ban 13 different breeds; I'm willing to bet that this little test neatly shows about 20 different breeds that would be in line for banning...


LadyKate wrote:
Quote:
The latest CDC "Dog Bite: Fact Sheet" includes a disclaimer regarding this study, saying that
"it does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites. There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill."


Hmmmmm.

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2009.htm
Quote:
32 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2009. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 500 U.S. cities, pit bulls led these attacks accounting for 44% (14). Pit bulls make up approximately 5% of the U.S. dog population.


Thats not 16. That's 32.


That's comparing year 2000 numbers from the CDC with year 2009 numbers from dogsbite.org.

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 Post subject: Re: Pit Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:40 am 
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Khross wrote:
Monte:

No, actually. American Pit Bull Terriers are labor dogs. They like to work and enjoy physical exertion. A good day to them is one that starts with food, some love, and a whole bunch of yard work. They get positively happy when I say, "Let's go do the yard."


We had a stray pit mix that basically followed my fiance home from work for a little while. She was very, very mouthy (meaning, she liked to nom on people, clothing, and stuff), but was a very sweet, smart dog. We found her a good home. They had some trouble with her - an undetected infection and they didn't get her fixed (grrr) when they should have. She has aggression issues with their other dogs, but they think it was mostly due to the infection and the fact that she wasn't spayed.

Once we resettle back in Wisconsin in a few years, we are probably gonna get a mastiff. My sister had a champion Mastiff, and he's probably the coolest dog I've ever known.

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