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 Post subject: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:25 am 
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http://dailycaller.com/2010/07/26/unive ... -or-leave/

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An Augusta State University counseling student has filed a lawsuit against her school claiming it violated her First Amendment rights when it told her to change her traditionalist Christian views on homosexuality or get out.

The Alliance Defense Fund filed suit Wednesday on behalf of Jennifer Keeton, 24, seeking to stop the school from expelling her from her master’s degree program.

“They made a cascading series of presumptions about the kind of a counselor she would be and have consequently … tried to force her to change her beliefs,” David French, the ADF attorney representing Keeting in the case, told The Daily Caller. “It’s symbolic of an educational system that has lost its way.”

The suit alleges the university retaliated against Keeton for stating her belief that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not a “state of being,” and that gender is not a social construct subject to individual change. According to the suit, the school wants her to undergo a “thought reform” program intended to change her religious beliefs. She faces expulsion unless she complies, and the suit seeks to block the university from throwing her out for noncompliance.

“Is saying there is such a thing as a male and a female as distinct, and that gender isn’t merely a social construct … such a dangerous position that it has to be banned from a profession?” French asked.

According to court documents, one of Keeton’s professors, Dr. Mary Jane Anderson-Wiley, told her this past May she would have to undergo a remediation program intended to change her views on homosexuality.

The university’s Counseling Education Program handbook proscribes such programs for those whose conduct is “not satisfactory on interpersonal or professional criteria unrelated to academic performance.

When Keeting received a copy of her program at a May 27 meeting, she saw the document questioned her ability to be a “multiculturally competent counselor” because she dissented from the prevailing view about homosexuality and tried to get others to see things her way.

It also warned her speech had violated various codes of ethics and her support for “conversion therapy for GLBTQ (Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgender) populations” departed from accepted norms of “psychological research.”

The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), however, defends the practice Keeting advocated on its website and says many of the studies opponents of “conversion therapy” cite suffer from politically motivated biases and deliberately ignore contrary evidence.

The program also required her to attend at least three pro-gay sensitivity training courses by the end of this fall, read pro-gay peer-reviewed journals on GLBTQ issues, and participate in activities such as Augusta’s gay pride parade. She also was asked to familiarize herself with the Association of Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender Issues in Counseling webpage, which defines homosexual behavior as healthy and suggests gender is a matter of personal choice rather than biology.

The professors also required her to submit a “two-page reflection” each month of how her participation in pro-gay activities “has influenced her beliefs” and how future clients might benefit from her experiences.

“There is no question they are putting her through a kind of thought-reform program when you think about what they are doing,” French said. “It’s a re-education program pure and simple, and it’s … the state trying to invade the human heart and human mind to change her deepest beliefs.”

He continued by noting, “It’s unconscionable.”

Anderson-Wiley reportedly complained about Keeting’s Christian belief that homosexuality is sinful and demanded she choose between her faith and the American Counseling Association’s Code of Ethics.

“You couldn’t be a teacher, let alone a counselor, with those views,” court documents quoted Dr. Paulette Schenck, another of the university’s counseling professors, as having said in response to Keeting’s affirmation of her Christian beliefs.

And Anderson-Wiley subsequently told Keeting the faculty wanted her to “alter some of her beliefs,” court documents say.

According to e-mails between Keeting and the professors, the faculty does not expect her to change her personal beliefs and values, but rather wants her to not expect others to share her values or impose them during her counseling sessions.

“This is the unethical part — applying your own personal beliefs and values on other people and not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are as equally valid as your own,” court documents say Schenck wrote in an e-mail exchange with Keeting.

The ACA would not immediately comment on the facts of the case, but released a statement clarifying its standards.

“The ACA Code of Ethics serves to ensure that counselors and counselors-in-training conduct themselves in a way which is consistent with the ideals of the profession. As such, the core values of diversity, multiculturalism and inclusion are present throughout the code and are crucial to the ethical decision-making process,” Erin Martz, ACA’s manager of ethics and professional standards wrote in an e-mailed statement.

According to French, the university crossed the line by mandating Keeting hold a certain set of beliefs.

“This is not the role of the state to be supervising their students’ religious beliefs, must less mandating their religious beliefs,” French said. “They certainly believe the values they hold trump her religious beliefs and that she should change her religious beliefs to match their beliefs…[It’s] fundamentally coercive.”

The courts have defined “religion” as a deeply held worldview that holds the same place in a person’s life as a conventional religion such as Christianity or Islam; consequently, an effort to require students to adhere to a certain worldview could potentially violate the Establishment Clause.

As a result, French said the university’s effort likely violates the Establishment Clause as well as the First Amendment’s free exercise clause.

“The left has been extremely upset by the fact that you would even see a picture of the 10 Commandments, or hear a prayer, or see a nativity scene,” French said. “None of those things are coercive. Here they are actually coercing students, they are actually saying, ‘Your religious beliefs disqualify you from this program, and to stay in this program you must alter your beliefs.’”

He continued, “They are going beyond censoring speech and stampeding straight to trying to change her heart and mind on religious issues and religious beliefs.”

Augusta State University would had not comment on the case, but spokeswoman Tunisia Williams told TheDC that her school does not deny students admission to programs because of “their personal religious persuasions.”

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:26 am 
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It is the Multicultural Animal farm. All beliefs are equal, just some are more equal then others.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:37 am 
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The posted article doesn't go into the back story at all - other than when it states "she dissented from the prevailing view about homosexuality and tried to get others to see things her way" and that the college "wants her to not expect others to share her values or impose them during her counseling sessions".

Sounds like she went outside her job description. The article seems very one sided.

There's a time and a place, and it really seems she failed to recognize that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:40 am 
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Reminds me too much of the program the University of Delaware got caught inflicting on all of its students and then tried to hide.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:50 am 
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Never heard of the school, but given its local, I'm guessing Khross is familiar with it.

I agree with Taskiss though, the article seems really one sided, but at the same time, the prescribed "treatment plan" seems way out of line and over the top.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:51 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
The posted article doesn't go into the back story at all - other than when it states "she dissented from the prevailing view about homosexuality and tried to get others to see things her way" and that the college "wants her to not expect others to share her values or impose them during her counseling sessions".

Sounds like she went outside her job description. The article seems very one sided.

There's a time and a place, and it really seems she failed to recognize that.

Agreed.

Don't go study to be a phlebotomist if you're a Jehovah's Witness.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:08 am 
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What qualifies as pro gay?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:20 am 
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They get paid for it?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:29 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
What qualifies as pro gay?


Not anti-gay, which includes those who don't really give a damn, according to my openly gay activist co-worker.

Neutral folks are more likely to vote pro-gay than anti-gay, if they bother to vote.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:37 am 
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I don't think you can go that far, Hopwin. That's for her employer to decide, not her state-run degree program. It's not like she's a Christian Scientist that opposes the entire notion of formal psychology.

I'm a bit on the fence about the bias of the article. It's clear there is a bias, but without more information, I don't know whether the bias is damning or merely natural.

The thing I can state regardless of the bias, however, is that the remedies for her support of re-education/brainwashing programs is pretty hilariously hypocritical. I mean, "You support brainwashing gays straight because of your faith; therefore we must brainwash you out of your faith" -- you can't make that **** up.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:13 am 
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Counselors don't have the luxury of trumping their client's well being with the counselor's willful ignorance. The state should not be in the business of handing out pedigrees to people that intend to discriminate or inflict their religious values on others via their profession.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:28 am 
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Monte wrote:
The state should not be in the business of handing out pedigrees to people that intend to discriminate or inflict their religious values on others via their profession.

If only you were consistent with this ideology and not reserving it only for those "values" with which you disagree.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:38 am 
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So the State should decide who is worthy of seeking an education and in what subjects. I don't want to live in that world.

Monty, a pedigree denotes ancestry.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:54 am 
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with a counsellor who does their job from their own moral viewpoint. The real problem here is that there is an "accepted norm" regarding gender identities and sexuality. If a person is going to a counselor whose views they find unacceptable, they can find another counsellor. Why shouldn't there be some counsellors that Evngelical Christians can go to who share their viewpoints? If a Christian went to a counsellor because, say, they are distraught over a friend or relative being gay, why should that counsellor necessarily be someone who is going to tell them that they are wrong in their moral evaluation of homosexuality?

While there does seem to be some bias in her favor in the article, and it's possible that she may have overstepped her bounds by pushing her views in counselling sessions rather than simply being frank about them when and if she was asked, the problem there is technique, not the unacceptability of her views. It should be just as unacceptable to push the view of "gay is perfectly okay and normal." Moreover, a lot of the sanctions against her, especially participating in a gay pride parade seem to be designed to humiliate her and force her to participate in things she doesn't agree with in hopes that she will change her views for fear of being shouted down by the people around her.

Regardless of your feelings on homosexuality, this is a problem of acceptance being confused with tolerance. People are entitled to tolerance; to be safe from other people harming them or attacking them, to be allowed to go about their own buisness. They are not entitled to acceptance; if you go to someone seeking their services wherein their views on a topic will be relevant to the service and might conflict with your own, it's your job to find someone else if you don't like that.

The only way the state should have any concern about her method of counselling is if they are actually employing her. Saying the state shouldn't give "pedigrees" to people who are "willfully ignorant" is essentially a smokescreen for "people with the wrong beliefs should be denied access to certain types of work and education."

Who else can we think of that pursued such a course of action in recent history? I know it will come to me...

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:57 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a counsellor who does their job from their own moral viewpoint. The real problem here is that there is an "accepted norm" regarding gender identities and sexuality. If a person is going to a counselor whose views they find unacceptable, they can find another counsellor. Why shouldn't there be some counsellors that Evngelical Christians can go to who share their viewpoints? If a Christian went to a counsellor because, say, they are distraught over a friend or relative being gay, why should that counsellor necessarily be someone who is going to tell them that they are wrong in their moral evaluation of homosexuality?

While there does seem to be some bias in her favor in the article, and it's possible that she may have overstepped her bounds by pushing her views in counselling sessions rather than simply being frank about them when and if she was asked, the problem there is technique, not the unacceptability of her views. It should be just as unacceptable to push the view of "gay is perfectly okay and normal." Moreover, a lot of the sanctions against her, especially participating in a gay pride parade seem to be designed to humiliate her and force her to participate in things she doesn't agree with in hopes that she will change her views for fear of being shouted down by the people around her.

Regardless of your feelings on homosexuality, this is a problem of acceptance being confused with tolerance. People are entitled to tolerance; to be safe from other people harming them or attacking them, to be allowed to go about their own buisness. They are not entitled to acceptance; if you go to someone seeking their services wherein their views on a topic will be relevant to the service and might conflict with your own, it's your job to find someone else if you don't like that.

The only way the state should have any concern about her method of counselling is if they are actually employing her. Saying the state shouldn't give "pedigrees" to people who are "willfully ignorant" is essentially a smokescreen for "people with the wrong beliefs should be denied access to certain types of work and education."

Who else can we think of that pursued such a course of action in recent history? I know it will come to me...

So you think it would be perfectly acceptable for the state to certify a psychologist who is a Scientologist?

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:01 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
So you think it would be perfectly acceptable for the state to certify a psychologist who is a Scientologist?

I seriously doubt a person practicing Scientology would chose that particular career path. That said, why should the state have the determination of what is or is not acceptable viewpoints on faith as it relates to job performance. Should the state deny medical licenses on the basis of that persons viewpoints regarding abortion, or critical care, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:05 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
So you think it would be perfectly acceptable for the state to certify a psychologist who is a Scientologist?


I don't know enough about Scientology to be totally certain why this would be a problem, but from what I understand, Scientologists reject pschology in general.

That is not the same situation at all. In this case, the woman is only disagreeing with the established moral viewpoint on one very narrow aspect of counselling.

Her actual competance as a counsellor does not seem to be in question outside of that narrow area. If she were at fundamental disagreement with how to conduct counselling, or whether it worked at all, she would be highly unlikely to enter the program in the first place and would rapidly demonstrate incompetance and fail out.

In the same way, a Scientologist who rejects psychology itself is not a fair comparison to this. If the Scientologist were able to put aside his views on the basic principles of how the science works and demonstrate that he can competantly perform psychology, that would be perfectly fine even if he based some of his viewpoints on the individual problems he dealt with on his moral views as a Scientologist.

However, it's unlikely that he would put aside his views in order to enter such a field in the first place, and if he did, it's even more unlikely he would subordinate them so completely.

Your question essentially confuses disagreement with the fundamentals of an entire field, rather than on the specific morality of one particulat activity that the person might be consulted about.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:19 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
That is not the same situation at all. In this case, the woman is only disagreeing with the established moral viewpoint on one very narrow aspect of counselling.

To you it is a question of morality, to others it is a question of science.
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Her actual competance as a counsellor does not seem to be in question outside of that narrow area. If she were at fundamental disagreement with how to conduct counselling, or whether it worked at all, she would be highly unlikely to enter the program in the first place and would rapidly demonstrate incompetance and fail out.

Because colleges don't rubber-stamp people into degrees?
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In the same way, a Scientologist who rejects psychology itself is not a fair comparison to this. If the Scientologist were able to put aside his views on the basic principles of how the science works and demonstrate that he can competantly perform psychology, that would be perfectly fine even if he based some of his viewpoints on the individual problems he dealt with on his moral views as a Scientologist.

Again it is a question of one person's morality rejecting science.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:43 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
That is not the same situation at all. In this case, the woman is only disagreeing with the established moral viewpoint on one very narrow aspect of counselling.

To you it is a question of morality, to others it is a question of science.


Whether homosexuality is moral is not a question of science. A scientific determination of cause might affect the moral question but no such determination has been made.

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Her actual competance as a counsellor does not seem to be in question outside of that narrow area. If she were at fundamental disagreement with how to conduct counselling, or whether it worked at all, she would be highly unlikely to enter the program in the first place and would rapidly demonstrate incompetance and fail out.

Because colleges don't rubber-stamp people into degrees?


What's that got to do with anything? Aside from the fact that this is a professional degree at the doctorate level, not some undergrad in basket weaving, this is irrelevant. It's a lot harder to rubber-stamp someone into a degree in a field they fundamentally disagree with the existance of than to pass off D work as C work. Not only that, but since they are giving her a hard time over disagreement with this particular aspect of counselling, why the hell would they rubber stamp someone who disagreed with counselling in principle into a counselling degree?

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In the same way, a Scientologist who rejects psychology itself is not a fair comparison to this. If the Scientologist were able to put aside his views on the basic principles of how the science works and demonstrate that he can competantly perform psychology, that would be perfectly fine even if he based some of his viewpoints on the individual problems he dealt with on his moral views as a Scientologist.

Again it is a question of one person's morality rejecting science.


Except that it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:50 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Whether homosexuality is moral is not a question of science.

Is the morality of that question something college counselors should expect others to emulate or impose on others during counseling sessions?

I wouldn't want college counselors expecting or imposing any particular morality on my kids. Of course, it it were the RIGHT Morality™ I'd be OK with it, but there are so many that one can pick from that I'd just rather that they didn't go there.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:

Whether homosexuality is moral is not a question of science. A scientific determination of cause might affect the moral question but no such determination has been made.

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Then why did you bring it up?

The Article wrote:
The suit alleges the university retaliated against Keeton for stating her belief that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not a “state of being,” and that gender is not a social construct subject to individual change.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:11 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Is the morality of that question something college counselors should expect others to emulate or impose on others during counseling sessions?

I wouldn't want college counselors expecting or imposing any particular morality on my kids. Of course, it it were the RIGHT Morality™ I'd be OK with it, but there are so many that one can pick from that I'd just rather that they didn't go there.


If the subject comes up, the counsellor should not be enjoined from stating their personal stance on it. They should not be "imposing" it, but stating their belief is not imposing it.

I don't quite see how a college counsellor would normally be discussing sexual issues with students anyhow.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:18 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Is the morality of that question something college counselors should expect others to emulate or impose on others during counseling sessions?

I wouldn't want college counselors expecting or imposing any particular morality on my kids. Of course, it it were the RIGHT Morality™ I'd be OK with it, but there are so many that one can pick from that I'd just rather that they didn't go there.


If the subject comes up, the counsellor should not be enjoined from stating their personal stance on it. They should not be "imposing" it, but stating their belief is not imposing it.

I don't quite see how a college counsellor would normally be discussing sexual issues with students anyhow.

Neither do I, and it sounds like is your position is closer to that of the college than the counselor.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Then why did you bring it up?

The Article wrote:
The suit alleges the university retaliated against Keeton for stating her belief that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not a “state of being,” and that gender is not a social construct subject to individual change.


I'm having a hard time understanding your quote tags, but the fact is that science has not established the answer to these questions, which in turn means it cannot be used to proclaim either a personal opinion on what one thinks is true, or a moral stance, out of bounds.

Even if science had shown a definite cause for homosexual orientation, it would still be a legitimate moral stance that homosexual acitivty is wrong, depending on one's moral system.

That's the problem with the professors' postition. They are trying to put an entire field of study off limits to those of a different moral framework. Her beliefs about the scientific status of gender and sexuality are merely opinion in the midst of lack of solid conclusions. She could still easily find homosexual activity immoral even if such orientation were found to be totally involuntary, and that's what they're really trying to force her to change: her moral position. Going to gay pride parades, writing papers on how she's changed her views and stuff have nothing to do with getting her to get on board with science; they're about giving her an ultimatum based on what the professors have decreed acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:55 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I'm having a hard time understanding your quote tags, but the fact is that science has not established the answer to these questions, which in turn means it cannot be used to proclaim either a personal opinion on what one thinks is true, or a moral stance, out of bounds.

Even if science had shown a definite cause for homosexual orientation, it would still be a legitimate moral stance that homosexual acitivty is wrong, depending on one's moral system.

That's the problem with the professors' postition. They are trying to put an entire field of study off limits to those of a different moral framework. Her beliefs about the scientific status of gender and sexuality are merely opinion in the midst of lack of solid conclusions. She could still easily find homosexual activity immoral even if such orientation were found to be totally involuntary, and that's what they're really trying to force her to change: her moral position. Going to gay pride parades, writing papers on how she's changed her views and stuff have nothing to do with getting her to get on board with science; they're about giving her an ultimatum based on what the professors have decreed acceptable.


Sorry about butchering the quotes :lol:

The Article wrote:
It also warned her speech had violated various codes of ethics and her support for “conversion therapy for GLBTQ (Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgender) populations” departed from accepted norms of “psychological research.”


If someone was advocating electro-shock therapy or ice-pick lobotomies for hyper-active youths I presume you would not support their position because it has been proven ineffective. Same if a doctor who was a Jehovah's Witness steered people away from surgery because blood transfusions are immoral. This girl is ignoring the ethics and accepted views of her field because she is advocating an ineffective treatment based on her own moral hang-ups. So if your personal beliefs don't mesh with your chosen vocation then you need to pick a new job.

As to the scientific evidence of whether or not homosexuality is or is not biological, I think there have been enough studies to substantiate the theorem and little to no research on the other side showing it is a choice. However, I am more than willing to concede that as with all things biological there are always exceptions to this rule.

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In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


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