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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Throw money at people, and they'll vote Democrat!

An August Surprise from Obama?
Spoiler:
An August Surprise from Obama?
AUG 5, 2010 00:26 EDT
2010 | FANNIE MAE | FREDD | GSES | HOUSING POLICY | OBAMANOMICS
Main Street may be about to get its own gigantic bailout. Rumors are running wild from Washington to Wall Street that the Obama administration is about to order government-controlled lenders Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to forgive a portion of the mortgage debt of millions of Americans who owe more than what their homes are worth. An estimated 15 million U.S. mortgages – one in five – are underwater with negative equity of some $800 billion. Recall that on Christmas Eve 2009, the Treasury Department waived a $400 billion limit on financial assistance to Fannie and Freddie, pledging unlimited help. The actual vehicle for the bailout could be the Bush-era Home Affordable Refinance Program, or HARP, a sister program to Obama’s loan modification effort. HARP was just extended through June 30, 2011.

The move, if it happens, would be a stunning political and economic bombshell less than 100 days before a midterm election in which Democrats are currently expected to suffer massive, if not historic losses. The key date to watch is August 17 when the Treasury Department holds a much-hyped meeting on the future of Fannie and Freddie. A few key points:

1) Republican leaders believe this is going to happen since GOPers and Democratic moderates in the Senate are unwilling to spend more taxpayer money on more stimulus. But such a housing plan would allow the White House to sidestep congressional objections and show voters it is doing something tangible about an economy that seems to be weakening.

2) Wall Street banks are alerting their clients privately to this possibility. Here is what some are cautiously saying publicly. This from Goldman Sachs:

GSE policies are one of a dwindling number of policy levers the administration has left to pull, so it is conceivable that changes could be made, though there is no sign that a policy change is imminent. The Treasury’s essentially unlimited ability to provide financial support to the GSEs creates an interesting situation over the next twelve months: the GSEs could potentially be used to provide additional support for the housing market and, to a lesser extent, the broader economy in 2H 2001.

And this from Mizuho Securities:

As policy makers ponder their next move the data suggests that they face not only a stalling recovery but a growing risk of deflation taking root in the economy. As a result, the Administration has turned back to industrial policies by approving the purchase of a sub-prime auto lender by GM as a means for pumping up domestic sales, especially since the latest auto sales data indicates that consumers are still responsive to incentives. This precedent increases the risk that the government will use its control of Fannie and Freddie to increase consumer cash flow and juice the economy again.

Moreover, Morgan Stanley is pushing a mortgage relief plan directly to Congress. On August 3, a top Morgan Stanley economist recommended to the Senate Budget Committee that Fannie and Freddie ease their lending standards to allow millions of Americans to refinance their mortgages.

3) Keep in mind the political and economic context. The nascent recovery is already running out of steam. Wall Street economists just downgraded the government’s second-quarter GDP estimate of 2.4 percent to around 1.7 percent. And as even Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner is warning, the unemployment rate may well begin to rise back toward the politically toxic 10 percent level given such sluggish growth. Many in the White House thought the unemployment rate would be dropping sharply by this point in the recovery.

But that is not happening. What is happening is that the president’s approval ratings are continuing to erode, as are Democratic election polls. Democrats are in real danger of losing the House and almost losing the Senate. The mortgage Hail Mary would be a last-gasp effort to prevent this from happening and to save the Obama agenda. The political calculation is that the number of grateful Americans would be greater than those offended that they — and their children and their grandchildren — would be paying for someone else’s mortgage woes.

4) And don’t think the White House is worried about financial market reaction. If they thought it would pass Congress, they would be submitting a $200 billion Stimulus 2.0 (3.0?, 4.0?) right now.

August is supposed to be a slow month for Washington politics. But maybe not this one.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Fantastic. So now, instead of the rich subsidizing the poor, the practical and responsible are subsidizing the reckless bubble speculators?

Joy.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:07 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Fantastic. So now, instead of the rich subsidizing the poor, the practical and responsible are subsidizing the reckless bubble speculators?

Joy.

Our kids are so ****.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:23 pm 
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This era of American presidencies is literally courting open revolution at this stage. President Obama knows Milton Friedman was right. Major change doesn't arise democratically. It is spawned out of major economic upheaval. This administration is trying to create it in order to enact wholesale change.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Lets give the people least likely to repay the loans more opportunity to borrow, undermine the standards that were deliberately put into place to stabilize lending companies, and saddle a company that isn't really out of the quicksand with another chance to over extend.

Brilliant.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Lets give the people least likely to repay the loans more opportunity to borrow, undermine the standards that were deliberately put into place to stabilize lending companies, and saddle a company that isn't really out of the quicksand with another chance to over extend.

Brilliant.


Dude, I noticed you missed one LARGE part of the plan... when it fails again: Blame the previous administration.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:59 am 
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Rynar wrote:
This era of American presidencies is literally courting open revolution at this stage. President Obama knows Milton Friedman was right. Major change doesn't arise democratically. It is spawned out of major economic upheaval. This administration is trying to create it in order to enact wholesale change.


So that's what he meant with his vague "change"!

I'm usually of the opinion that it's difficult to make judgment calls on... just about anything, when you're an outsider without knowledge that the people on the inside making the decisions have.

At this point, though, I simply can't come up with any devil's advocate defenses. What can something like this accomplish other than staving off an immediate problem and making it worse? This isn't even a long-term kind of delay, either.

I can almost, almost go along with "start proper lending policies now and use taxpayer money to alleviate the problems resulting from the recent bad policy years" but a) that's hardly commendable to begin with, using money in such a way and b) even devil's-advocate-me won't believe the administration would be supportive of this sort of conservative shoring up. It would seem too much like doing nothing, with the negative of bailing out irresponsible homeowners.

I do sometimes worry about the whole "we must take charge of the situation and do something" ideology. A lot of the time it is correct. It's almost always a risk, though, and when that risk turns sour... maybe I'm just too conservative (in the non-political sense) but I'm not fond of such high stakes gambling, even if I liked the basic ideas behind it (which I don't). The whole spending more, more, more seems like it's the current administration's answer to everything -- gambling gambling gambling.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:16 am 
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Awesome news. HAMP was a total ****, and doing something for millions of Americans drowning in debt is something that should have happened a long time ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:30 am 
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Monte wrote:
Awesome news. HAMP was a total ****, and doing something for millions of Americans drowning in debt is something that should have happened a long time ago.

Your lunacy knows no bounds.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:44 am 
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That article provides zero evidence that this is something the Obama Administration is considering. There is, quite literally, not a single statement or action by any Democrat, let alone from someone in the Administration, indicating this is going to happen. All the article says is that Treasury has the power to do this, that it might arguably help Obama politically, and that "rumors are running wild from Washington to Wall Street"; "Republican leaders believe this is going to happen"; "Wall Street banks are alerting their clients privately to this possibility"; and "Morgan Stanley is pushing a mortgage relief plan directly to Congress".

Maybe this'll happen; maybe it won't. But the cited article is really nothing more than speculation on the part of a reporter looking for something to write about.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:49 am 
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I think we all realize that RD, but my comments at least were regarding the concept.

What are yours if the theory comes to pass?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:24 am 
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Yes, RD, that's exactly what it is, an opinion piece about rumors. That's why the question mark was used, and the fact that it was based on rumors is right there in the piece, at the top.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:47 am 
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Screeling wrote:
Monte wrote:
Awesome news. HAMP was a total ****, and doing something for millions of Americans drowning in debt is something that should have happened a long time ago.

Your lunacy knows no bounds.

I don't know...

People without a pot to pee in nor a window to throw it out of if they had are quite logical when they desire the things that folks have that actually earned what they have. I don't think it qualifies as lunacy...

It does qualify as dishonest, asinine, boorish, bastardly, cowardly, and pusillanimous...but not actually lunacy.

Someone is allowing these losers to breed, THAT'S what qualifies as lunacy. The drain on this country and their fellow man they cause... it should be criminal.

You know, I'm set for life, but my kids...they'll pay the price. What these bastards are doing they should be castrated for.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:28 am 
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Heh. This could be worth a lot of money to me. My house has dropped more than the 20% I put down on it. I can pay my mortgage, of course, but I can't refinance since I owe more than it's worth.

So, forgiving the underwater portion of the debt would allow me to refinance and take advantage of the 4.2% fixed interest rates.

So, about $20,000 or so of debt would be forgiven, and I'd reduce my interest rate by 2.3 points over the next 30 years.

Windfall.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Just FYI, the Treasury Department has officially responded to the rumors and claims there is no such plan being considered.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Heh, much like Arathian this would save me a ton of money personally. That said, I'm very much against it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Heh, much like Arathian this would save me a ton of money personally.

And that's why you both fail.... this is supposed to free more of you borrowing capacity to spend on other consumer goods so that some bubble can be inflated, not savings.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:24 pm 
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My house it worth more than I paid for it 2 years ago, at least according to Zillow.

I also bid on 7 houses before I found a seller who would sell at what we considered to be the future value of the house instead of what they thought the present value was.

It may be that the house will go down in value from here - the house is on Zillow at just a couple of grand over what we paid. Even so, I don't think I'd get much help from the government if that happened, nor would I want or expect any.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Goddammit.

Maybe I really should just stop paying my mortgage...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:48 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Goddammit.

Maybe I really should just stop paying my mortgage...


I have been seriously considering doing exactly that, and doing the same with the property we have in my honey's name.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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I'm a lunatic because I think that government spending increases aggregate demand? I'm a lunatic because I think the government should have bailed out homeowners caught by the burst housing bubble in order to help the overall economy?

Apparently that qualifies as lunacy. Whatever you need, lol.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I'm a lunatic because I think that government spending increases aggregate demand? I'm a lunatic because I think the government should have bailed out homeowners caught by the burst housing bubble in order to help the overall economy?

Apparently that qualifies as lunacy. Whatever you need, lol.


You are a lunatic because you feel that you have a right to profit on an investment.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Just throwing this out there: Isn't forgiving a portion of the mortgage a better plan than losing the entire sum to default? (strategic or otherwise)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Just throwing this out there: Isn't forgiving a portion of the mortgage a better plan than losing the entire sum to default? (strategic or otherwise)

When the lender takes over from a default, they can resell the property.

The lender won't lose the entire sum, and the US taxpayers won't go even farther in the hole. Hopefully the people that defaulted paid at least some of the difference between what was owed and what the property is worth.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:00 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Monte wrote:
I'm a lunatic because I think that government spending increases aggregate demand? I'm a lunatic because I think the government should have bailed out homeowners caught by the burst housing bubble in order to help the overall economy?

Apparently that qualifies as lunacy. Whatever you need, lol.


You are a lunatic because you feel that you have a right to profit on an investment.


If I actually thought that, you might have a point. (you wouldn't, mind you. Lunacy is believing that Austrian Economics are actually valid, or that Sarah Palin is qualified to be President). But I don't think that. I think that folks got caught up in a bubble, and the particulars of that bubble made it something that had lots of effects beyond the individuals who bought into it. I think that spending money on fixing that problem is useful, not only from the perspective of helping people in need, but also from an overall economic perspective. Helping them puts their money back into the economy, which helps everyone out. In my opinion, bailing out homeowners has both a humanitarian purpose *and* a pragmatic purpose.

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