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The slow wheels of justice https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3868 |
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Author: | Uncle Fester [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | The slow wheels of justice |
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41104.html Good for Him, turns out he was innocent. To bad he can not commiserate with Stevens over bad investigations. Quote: The Justice Department has informed former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas) that the government has ended a six-year investigation of his ties to the disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff, according to DeLay's lead counsel in the matter, Richard Cullen, chairman of McGuireWoods. The investigation lasted through two presidents and four attorneys general. Its demise provides a stark footnote to the lobbying scandals that helped Democrats regain the House majority they held for 40 years and lost in the Republican revolution of 1994, which eventually made the pugnacious DeLay one of Washington’s top power brokers. Continue Reading Text Size * - * + * reset Video POLITICO 44 Get Adobe Flash player “The federal investigation of Tom DeLay is over, and there will be no charges,” Cullen said. “This was one of the longest and expensive and thorough investigations in recent memory. DeLay took a tack right from the start that he had nothing to hide, and we have been in a routine and constant dialogue with [prosecutors]. “I’m sure he wishes it didn’t take six years of his life, with a cloud hanging over him. I am pleased with the outcome. They just took longer than we would have preferred. He said he was gratified and thanked us.” Cullen said he was pleased there were no leaks from the government as the investigation ground on. “They played fair,” he said. The Justice Department does not comment publicly on investigations where charges are not brought. But Cullen said a prosecutor from the department’s Public Integrity Section telephoned him with the news last week and said he was free to make it public. Cullen said investigators talked to witnesses and checked documents overseas and had an “extremely active grand jury” that heard testimony from former aides and others. “In 2005, we voluntarily produced to the prosecutors over 1,000 e-mails and documents from the DeLay office dating back to 1997,” Cullen said. “Several members of Congress [accused in related cases] objected to producing official government records under Speech or Debate Clause concerns. DeLay took the opposite position, ordering all his staff to answer all questions. He turned over more than 1,000 documents, and several of his aides gave interviews and grand jury testimony.” A state case continues in Texas, with a hearing scheduled for Aug. 24. A trial is expected next spring and could last several weeks. DeLay started a consulting firm, First Principles LLC, when he left office. He now spends most of his time at his home in Sugarland, Texas. He travels a lot to give speeches and works with foster children through the community he and his wife, Christine, started. |
Author: | Khross [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The slow wheels of justice |
I predict great things for this thread. |
Author: | Monte [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Wow. I must say I'm disappointed, but not terribly surprised. |
Author: | Farther [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The slow wheels of justice |
It seems to me that great things is not something that happens in "Hellfire". From what I've seen so far, anyway. Of course, I detect sarcasm in Khross' missive. |
Author: | Nitefox [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Monte wrote: Wow. I must say I'm disappointed, but not terribly surprised. You're disappointed an innocent person was cleared of wrongdoing? |
Author: | Uncle Fester [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
There are no innocent conservatives or Republicans, only those not yet up against the wall for the glory of the Revolution. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Uncle Fester wrote: There are no innocent conservatives or Republicans, only those not yet up against the wall for the glory of the Revolution. It would be an interesting statistic to know, of the people that died defending this country, what is the percentage of conservative and liberal. |
Author: | Uncle Fester [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Not sure if that information is even available. I wonder if we can find of the politicians convicted the rep/dem lib/con conviction %. Although Given Monty's ability to understand percentages, any example would be lost. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Monte wrote: Wow. I must say I'm disappointed, but not terribly surprised. Disappointed that he's innocent? Disappointed that he wasn't convicted anyway? Disappointed that the grand jury was unable to find the proof of guilt that you found so quickly? Or, disappointed that the investigation dragged on so long and cost an innocent man his career? |
Author: | Khross [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Disappointed that he's innocent? Obviously, Monte feels that Tom DeLay is guilty, regardless of the outcome of the investigation, Grand Jury indictment and fact finding process, and the resources devoted to this situation.
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Author: | Monte [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:47 am ] |
Post subject: | |
There are still charges pending in Texas. And he wasn't found not guilty, the DoJ didn't build a good case. Which means he walks. I recently served on a jury. The prosecution did a terrible job with the case (not entirely their fault, their witnesses sucked). The jury acquitted the man, though all of us believed he was likely involved in what happened. Tom DeLay is one of the most corrupt officials to be in government in the last 50 years. Just because he didn't get busted doesn't mean he's actually innocent. It just means they failed to make a good case. The late Senator Stevens got off, as well, and he was corrupt. I firmly believe that the Bush DoJ was intentionally incompetent with both cases, and that by the time Holder got into office there wasn't much to go on. |
Author: | Khross [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The slow wheels of justice |
Hmmms, so actual claims of a conspiracy theory versus Montegue's repeated bare assertions that we're all racist, conspiracy theorists ... Well isn't that just special. |
Author: | Monte [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The slow wheels of justice |
Khross wrote: Hmmms, so actual claims of a conspiracy theory versus Montegue's repeated bare assertions that we're all racist, conspiracy theorists ... Well isn't that just special. *golfclap* Are you going to go off on a foaming at the mouth tirade now? They seem to be your intellectual stock and trade lately. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Monte wrote: And he wasn't found not guilty, the DoJ didn't build a good case. Which means he walks. Setting aside Delay, I am horrified at this response. Neither the current or prior administration could find enough evidence to charge him with a crime but he is still guilty? So in order to exonerate himself he had to go to trial and be found not guilty? Nice precedent. |
Author: | Khross [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The slow wheels of justice |
Monte wrote: It's difficult to seriously debate with people who simply reject reality out of hand. Someone's going to quote that line, as if it's ironic. And my guess is the person who quotes that line may not be so sure the President was born in America, or they might think that the global scientific consensus on HIGCC is just a massive hoax or a conspiracy or a cult. They may at one time have believed (and may still believe) that Michelle Obama is some sort of militant black racist, or that James O'Keefe's videos were an honest accounting of his experiences with ACORN. You were saying, Montegue?
And that, I think is the main problem. There are things a person can reasonably debate. You can debate the relative merits of different economic outlooks. You can debate the relative merits of various government policies. You can debate morality, or faith, or what have you. And that's all fine and good. However, there are some things you cannot debate with a person who does not accept reality. You can't have a serious discussion on policy responses to climate change when people, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, believe in their heart of hearts that it's a hoax. You can't have a rational discussion about the President's position on foreign policy with people that think it's reasonable to assert that Obama is just like Stalin or Hitler. On this board, there is an Enemy. The Enemy is the Left. Anything of the Left is wrong and must be attacked. Anything not sufficiently Right enough is wrong. And not only wrong, but must be eliminated. It doesn't matter if a thing is objectively true. It only matters that the Left be attacked. It's not enough, on this board, to support reforms to public schools. You have to actually oppose the Department of Education as a fascist, slave-making plot or you're not a "serious" poster. It's not enough to talk about ways to make Social Security or Medicare work. If you don't castigate those programs as sinister armed robbery at gun point, then you're the crazy one. This board is not a place for reasoned, rational debate. It's a place where no right wing conspiracy theory is too far fetched to get air time. Secret Whitey Tape? It *definitely* exists. Obama's birth certificate? It's not a "real" birth certificate. Violence in Arizona is actually going down over the last few years? BAH! Liberal conspiracy. Damn liberal media. Everyone knows the Mexicans are killing ranchers left and right and that every single one of them is a drug mule. This disconnected relationship with reality has been growing since the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Everyone *knew* that everything the government said about Iraq was true, and if you dared to say otherwise, you were a traitor and a terrorist sympathizer. I am convinced at this point that the "very serious" minds on this board would accept just about any conspiracy theory spewed by Fox News and put up on a chalkboard by Glenn Beck. He's the hero of the Tea Party movement. The Tea Party movement is the hero of the conservative movement. All hail Beckistan. |
Author: | Nitefox [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:04 am ] |
Post subject: | |
motivated cognition -- a tendency to bias our interpretation of facts to fit a version of the world we wish to believe is true. They just need to call this the Monty condition. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:18 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Monte wrote: There are still charges pending in Texas. And he wasn't found not guilty, the DoJ didn't build a good case. Which means he walks. I recently served on a jury. The prosecution did a terrible job with the case (not entirely their fault, their witnesses sucked). The jury acquitted the man, though all of us believed he was likely involved in what happened. Tom DeLay is one of the most corrupt officials to be in government in the last 50 years. Just because he didn't get busted doesn't mean he's actually innocent. It just means they failed to make a good case. The late Senator Stevens got off, as well, and he was corrupt. I firmly believe that the Bush DoJ was intentionally incompetent with both cases, and that by the time Holder got into office there wasn't much to go on. So you have all this proof of Delay and Steven's guilt, yet the grand jury can't come up with any? No, I think you just want people to go to jail because you don't like them. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The slow wheels of justice |
The really hilarious part is that it wasn't merely a matter of a bad case with Stevens; there was prosecutorial misconduct.... at a time when the Dems needed every seat in their attempt to get 60. I guess the prosecutors must have been corrupt and working for the Dems; clearly since they weren't acquitted, they must have been! When you investigate for 6 years and can't even justify continuing to investigate, you've been barking up the wrong tree. |
Author: | Stathol [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Monte wrote: Faith is defined as an ardent belief in something in absence of evidence to support that belief. Monte wrote: Incorrect. Remember that faith requires belief in absence of evidence. Monte wrote: I do not take on faith that he does not exist. I look at the evidence, and I draw a rational conclusion that he does not exist. [...]It is an act of faith because in order to hold that belief, you must do so in absence of evidence. Monte wrote: Again, it does not require an act of faith to come to this conclusion. It only requires that a person look at the evidence and lack of evidence objectively and draw the only rational conclusion. Monte wrote: And he wasn't found not guilty, the DoJ didn't build a good case. Given, then, that by your own admission there is a lack of sufficient evidence establishing his guilt, I take it that you concede that the only rational conclusion is that he is not guilty and that it requires an act of faith to believe in his guilt in light of this absence of evidence. |
Author: | Monte [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: So you have all this proof of Delay and Steven's guilt, yet the grand jury can't come up with any? No, I think you just want people to go to jail because you don't like them. I certainly don't have it, but I do believe it involves failure on the part of prosecutors. My theory is that said failure is intentional. It *could* be the result of gross incompetence on the part of Bush's political appointees to the department. Who knows? However, the hammer is not in fact out of the woods yet. He still faces charges in Texas. I don't hold out much hope that he'll be held accountable for his corruption, but we shall see. Khross - you're making a rather grand illogical conclusion, aren't you? They did not proceed with federal charges, so then he must be, in reality, innocent of those charges? That doesn't wash. He could very much be guilty of what he's accused of. The State, however, has the burden (thankfully), and they dropped the ball, so he walks. It's our system, and it's a good one. OJ got acquitted, too. Doesn't mean he didn't actually kill those people. |
Author: | DFK! [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:05 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Did you Know? In the recent thread where Elmo referred to a prominent and deceased Democratic Party Senator as a murderer, a particular poster jumped up and down to defend against that allegation despite lack of evidence; now, that same poster is jumping up and down to morally convict a prominent and former Republican Party senator, despite lack of evidence. People capable of rational thought would call that "blatant hypocrisy." |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:10 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Monte wrote: Arathain Kelvar wrote: So you have all this proof of Delay and Steven's guilt, yet the grand jury can't come up with any? No, I think you just want people to go to jail because you don't like them. I certainly don't have it, but I do believe it involves failure on the part of prosecutors. Ok, so you don't have evidence but you BELIEVE the prosecutors failed and he's really guilty. So I guess Stathol hit the nail on the head. It's like faith. Your animosity toward Republicans is your religion. Quote: My theory is that said failure is intentional. It *could* be the result of gross incompetence on the part of Bush's political appointees to the department. Who knows? Or maybe your noodly appendage of God? Or, maybe, he's innocent. Quote: OJ got acquitted, too. Doesn't mean he didn't actually kill those people. Ok, so we've previously established that producing no evidence of a crime and producing no charges does not mean you're not guilty. Now you are saying that going through trial and being found "not guilty" does not mean you're not guilty. Basically, then, it can be assumed that in order to be accepted as not guilty, the Religion of Monty must BELIEVE it. |
Author: | Monte [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Ok, so you don't have evidence but you BELIEVE the prosecutors failed and he's really guilty. So I guess Stathol hit the nail on the head. It's like faith. Your animosity toward Republicans is your religion. Because that conclusion is logical. /eyeroll My belief in Tom Delay's corruption is not without evidence. Just because the evidence the DoJ presented was not sufficient doesn't mean there isn't ample evidence of his corruption. While it could be possible that Tom Delay is as clean as a whistle, the chances of that are nearly nil. He may walk entirely. However, he's still connected to Jack Abramoff, he's still connected to the evil that is the North Marianas Island clothing industry - I just don't think he's as goodly a man as you guys seem to be implying. However, you are correct that it is my *belief*. It is something I believe subjectively. It is not, however, an article of faith. Quote: Or maybe your noodly appendage of God? Or, maybe, he's innocent. Do you honestly believe he's actually innocent? Quote: Ok, so we've previously established that producing no evidence of a crime and producing no charges does not mean you're not guilty. Now you are saying that going through trial and being found "not guilty" does not mean you're not guilty. There is actual guilt, and guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Trials do not affect what actually happened. You can be found innocent and still be, in reality, guilty of a crime. Quote: Basically, then, it can be assumed that in order to be accepted as not guilty, the Religion of Monty must BELIEVE it. Don't be an idiot. You know damn well it's illogical to conclude that a jury's verdict will always reflect reality. Remember, the Jury's job is not to determine weather or not he did it. The Jury's job is to judge if the state has met it's burden of proof. |
Author: | Nitefox [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:29 am ] |
Post subject: | |
The ownage of Monty in this thread is epic. I can imagine other libs on this board thinking "this idiot is on our side?" |
Author: | Hopwin [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Nitefox wrote: The ownage of Monty in this thread is epic. I can imagine other libs on this board thinking "this idiot is on our side?" ^_^ |
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