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| Question for Conservatives, Week 1 https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3888 |
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| Author: | Monte [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
I had an inspiration just now. Every week, I'm going to post a question. It will be a single post, probably with a good deal of context, and then will let conservatives on the board answer the question if they want. I won't be replying or verbally sparring with people. I may ask a follow up question if I'm curious about a response or desire clarification. But, in general, I will post the question and generally stay the hell out of your way. So, here's the first one. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the last couple of weeks, the media has been ablaze with stories about the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque". There's been a lot of misinformation, a lot of jingoism and a lot of screamers on the television talking about it. The main objection to the mosque from Conservative leaders isn't just that it's located in the vicinity of the "pit", as New Yorkers call the site of the 9-11 attacks. Newt Gingrich had this to say about the planned Mosque - "And I think we ought to be honest about the fact that we have a right -- and this happens all the time in America. You know, Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust Museum in Washington." Newt Gingrich isn't some far-right extremist. He's supposedly a mainstream serious contender for the GOP nomination in 2012. And here he is, basically comparing all of Islam and it's practitioners to the Nazis. He goes on to compare them to the Japanese that attacked us on Pearl Harbor, as well. It's pretty clear that in Newt Gingrich's mind, Islam is an evil religion and they should not be afforded the same rights as other religions in this country. In other words, he seems to believe that because we were attacked by Islam, all of Islam lost their rights under the first Amendment. Ok, that's his position. But is he alone? Let's find out - Jay Sekulow, Chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice called the building, which is in an old Burlington Coat Factory, a "a 15-story monument to what happened on 9-11." Limbaugh, a major player in conservative circles and Republican politics, compared this community center to a KKK building, clearly indicating what he thought of all of Islam. So, it's safe to conclude, given the rhetoric coming from conservative movers and shakers, that conservatism sees Islam the enemy, and setting up an Islamic community center a few blocks from the 9-11 attack site constitutes a celebration of the enemy's attack. It's clear from countless other talking points that conservatives in general don't have a lot of nice things to say about Islam. This question is not actually about the proposed community center, however. It centers on something else. 10 years ago, we were told, and Conservative generally supported, the invasion of Iraq. While several justifications were presented to the American people (many of which turned out to be false), one key justification was present throughout the process - we were invading Iraq and fighting in Afghanistan to bring freedom, democracy, and fundamental rights to the people of those countries. People who are, overall, mostly Muslim. We were so committed to this liberation that we have spent thousands of lives and countless billions of dollars on the efforts in both countries. We have sent tens of thousands of casualties back home. So dedicated were we to the idea of freedom for the Islamic people of Iraq and Afghanistan that we were willing to send our young men and women into those countries to kill and die for their freedom. And now we come to my question. How do conservatives on one hand justify the invasion and occupation of Iraq in the name of liberating the Muslim people in those countries while simultaneously arguing to deny first amendment rights to Islamic people that live here in the United States and are US Citizens? |
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| Author: | Taskiss [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... ound-zero/ Quote: According to the new survey out Wednesday, nearly 70 percent of all Americans oppose the controversial plan to build the mosque just blocks away from the solemn site in lower Manhattan while just 29 percent favor the construction. Broken down by party affiliation, 54 percent of Democrats oppose the plans while 82 percent of Republicans disapprove. Meanwhile, 70 percent of independents said they are against the proposal. Being against the plans for a mosque near ground zero is a bi-partisan position. It transcends party politics. Your premise is flawed. Quote: How do
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| Author: | darksiege [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Edit: As I saw this thread prior to reading that Monte had been banned I had responded. As I have just read of his ban.... I feel it would be in bad taste for me to contribute to this thread. As such I have removed my response. |
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| Author: | NephyrS [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
That was a long ramble for one question. And to answer it? I have no idea how anyone else justifies anything. I'm not inside their head. Obviously some people have trouble with it. Some of them are conservatives (although I also know liberals that are against the mosque). I personally see no issue in its construction. But were I the one planning it, and it obviously had struck such bad chords in many people, I would likely relocate it somewhere else in the interest of trying to slowly bridge cultural divides instead of forcing it on people. We, as humans in general, have a really hard time reconciling the differences between individuals in a group and the groups they are part of. Take the confederate flag. The vast majority of people who fought under it were not slave owners. Most of them did not support the owning of slaves. A significant number of them were African American. But every time someone attempts to place the confederate flag somewhere prominent in the south, usually as a means of honoring their ancestors who fought and died in a very vicious war, it is seen as an attempt to degrade the rights of African Americans. Do I think displaying the confederate flag is a problem? No. Just like building those building the mosque have the right to build it wherever they can buy the land, anyone has a right to display any flag or symbol they care to. Do I think it's stupid to display it where and when it obviously upsets people and is divisive? Yes. However, to again respond to your original question, how the **** am I supposed to tell how or why anyone else rationalizes anything? |
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| Author: | Farther [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
The flag thing reminded me of a scene from a John Wayne movie. Wayne was a Union cavalryman, talking to a Confederate, and asking him why he would keep on fighting, even though Lee had surrendered. The Southerner said, "Because this is our land, and you're on it." Wayne said, "But we're all Americans." and the Southerner said, "Yes, sir. That's always been the saddest thing about it." Lines from a script, I know. But telling nonetheless. (The Undefeated) |
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| Author: | Stathol [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Edit: Argh, nevermind. darksiege wrote: Edit: As I saw this thread prior to reading that Monte had been banned I had responded. As I have just read of his ban.... I feel it would be in bad taste for me to contribute to this thread. As such I have removed my response. Yeah, this. I'm not usually a fan of removing posts, but in this case, yeah. |
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| Author: | Lex Luthor [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I hope you had fun typing this all up, Monte, just to get banned right after. |
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| Author: | Farther [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
I posted what I did before seeing Monte was banned, I will remove it if I violated some code here. Someone let me know, ok? |
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| Author: | NephyrS [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Since my post didn't necessitate him responding (and in fact, he said he didn't intend to respond), I see no problem with leaving my opinion stated. It's not like any of us knew he was banned prior to posting our answers, and he can certainly still read them as he intended. |
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| Author: | Lex Luthor [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Farther wrote: I posted what I did before seeing Monte was banned, I will remove it if I violated some code here. Someone let me know, ok? I've already contacted my lawyer just in case. |
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| Author: | Farther [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Lex Luthor wrote: Farther wrote: I posted what I did before seeing Monte was banned, I will remove it if I violated some code here. Someone let me know, ok? I've already contacted my lawyer just in case. Is he/she with the firm "Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe"? |
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| Author: | Lex Luthor [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Farther wrote: Lex Luthor wrote: Farther wrote: I posted what I did before seeing Monte was banned, I will remove it if I violated some code here. Someone let me know, ok? I've already contacted my lawyer just in case. Is he/she with the firm "Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe"? No, but he specializes in Victim Card Identity Fraud, and Monte may have a case against me (I quickly swiped his VC when he left). |
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| Author: | Stathol [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Farther wrote: I posted what I did before seeing Monte was banned, I will remove it if I violated some code here. Someone let me know, ok? You're fine. There's no rule about it or anything. It was just a personal call to remove my own response in light of the particular circumstances. |
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| Author: | Rynar [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
I missed the straw that broke the camel's back. Out of morbid curiosity, where is it located? |
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| Author: | Rodahn [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Quote: Monte had been banned Seriously? And permanently banned no less? SMH Unbelievable. |
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| Author: | Wwen [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Rynar wrote: I missed the straw that broke the camel's back. Out of morbid curiosity, where is it located? I'm curious too, as I did not see that coming. I also can't believe it. He's been banned and returned so many times that I'm more than a little incredulous. |
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| Author: | NephyrS [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Kinda seems like he finally pushed Mook too far, Mook took a while to carefully think it over, and then acted ::shrugs:: |
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| Author: | Diamondeye [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
I'd say when he went so far as to accuse ALL of the moderators and administration of major bias against him, including Mook, who has made it clear he doesn't care much for Hellfire nor the arguments here, and rarely posts in here, it was probably a death sentence. As for the topic of the thread.. it's pointless to respond, and probably in poor taste. |
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| Author: | Rynar [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Diamondeye wrote: I'd say when he went so far as to accuse ALL of the moderators and administration of major bias against him, including Mook, who has made it clear he doesn't care much for Hellfire nor the arguments here, and rarely posts in here, it was probably a death sentence. As for the topic of the thread.. it's pointless to respond, and probably in poor taste. Ah, so it was more or less a Lifetime Achievement Award, honoring him for his body of work? |
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| Author: | darksiege [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Rodahn wrote: Quote: Monte had been banned Seriously? And permanently banned no less? SMH Unbelievable. SMH? |
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| Author: | Midgen [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I think Mookhow just gave Monte a big fat STFU right in his face ( and deservedly so ). As I said in the other thread, he showed a lot more patience than I would have if I were King. |
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| Author: | Rodahn [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
darksiege wrote: Rodahn wrote: Quote: Monte had been banned Seriously? And permanently banned no less? SMH Unbelievable. SMH? Shake My Head |
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| Author: | Hokanu [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Farther wrote: Lex Luthor wrote: Farther wrote: I posted what I did before seeing Monte was banned, I will remove it if I violated some code here. Someone let me know, ok? I've already contacted my lawyer just in case. Is he/she with the firm "Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe"? Of course! He has hired Donnatella Dicoppas and Gil T. Azell. Don't drive like my brother |
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| Author: | Dalantia [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
And don't drive like my brother. |
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| Author: | Lex Luthor [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question for Conservatives, Week 1 |
Monte wrote: And now we come to my question. How do conservatives on one hand justify the invasion and occupation of Iraq in the name of liberating the Muslim people in those countries while simultaneously arguing to deny first amendment rights to Islamic people that live here in the United States and are US Citizens? The invasion of Iraq was originally justified over Saddam's possession weapons of mass destruction. However, once we seized control over the country, it became our responsibility to ensure peace and stable government. The first amendment rights to Islamic people are not compromised in the United States. This claim is false and has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq. |
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