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COICA
https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4471
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Author:  Talya [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  COICA

Your Senate wants to kill your ability to access anything they deem inappropriate on the Internet. This looks like one of the biggest threats to free speech in the USA, ever.

Discuss.

http://www.eff.org/issues/coica-interne ... right-bill
http://www.eff.org/pages/sites-coica-ma ... ne-and-why

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

I need more info on how they enforce the blacklist.

In other news: don't provide links to tools or participate in piracy on your domain, and you're safe from this law, barring vendettas from the bench (which can be appealed, in theory).

Does it impinge free speech? Yes. But in a society where we have no qualms about outlawing and criminalizing hate speech, I see no reason to suddenly get up in arms over outlawing and criminalizing speech that is endorsing, encouraging, and facilitating (one could say "conspiring to sponsor") criminal activity. An example of which, last time I checked, copyright infringement is.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

So, you'd be okay with them blocking sites like Rapidshare (which cooperate fully with valid copyright takedown orders) and pirate-party.us (an official and legal political party dedicated to copyright reform)? You'd be okay with them beginning to block anonymizers and proxy servers, and bittorrent software providers? Last time I checked, bittorrent itself wasn't illegal, and has more legitimate uses than illegal ones.

Generally, if EFF opposes something, it's a very bad idea. Everything they have ever protected is absolutely essential to individual freedom in America. Of course, if you're okay with giving that up...

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of EFF. Sometimes they go a little wacky from my perspective, but they tend to, as a rule, choose their battles well and genuinely look for practical and equitable solutions.

The way I see it, Rapidshare could probably appeal, depending on the case made against it (which would depend highly upon how much copyrighted material was on their servers); when you have no screening process and millions of uploads, it's unreasonable to expect IP holders to find the needles in the haystack that represent their own IP in order to defend it. That's not a system that works.

Alternately, Rapidshare could create a screening process, or a process that can compare known copyrighted material to uploads to automatically flag potential violations to be screened manually. (YouTube does something like this, IIRC) Upon doing so, it could then claim that it has made good faith efforts and changed its model substantially to get unblacklisted.

Pirate-party.us has a right to political speech. It doesn't have a right to endorse or teach people how to break the law. If they want to maintain their right to political speech, they need to pare out the other kind.

So, yeah. I respect EFF's position, here, and I think that it may have a point (for instance, I see little purpose in this kind of action if it only applies to US-based DNS servers; such legislation would only be effective (and thus useful) if it were part of an initiative with the backing of the IAB); that does not mean that I'll blindly support or oppose something just because the EFF does. I want more info.

Author:  Xequecal [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COICA

The problem with these types of laws is they threaten to shut down anything that hosts user-generated content which doesn't rely on whitelisting. For example, depending on how strict the law is, they could shut down Battle.net because certain Starcraft II custom maps contain copyrighted material in them, it's simply not feasible for Blizzard to screen everything that gets uploaded.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

Well, then either copyright law has to change, or these sites need to make it their priority to figure out how to make it feasible to screen user-contributed content.

Or, shock of shocks, maybe user-contributed content isn't the future. Or at the very least, maybe anonymous user-contributed content isn't. A lot of copyrighted **** gets taken off of these sites already; why is there no deterrent for the user to upload them? Because they're anonymous (or vaguely so) and thus the IP owner can't touch them to discourage infringing behavior. Right now, the best they can do is make the host take it down, and it'll just get uploaded again from somebody else.

Author:  Talya [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Well, then either copyright law has to change, or these sites need to make it their priority to figure out how to make it feasible to screen user-contributed content.


Actually, copyright law would need to change to support your argument. It is not Youtube's responsibility to ensure posted videos do not violate copyright before they're available. It is never the site's responsibility. Their only responsibility by law is to comply with legal takedown requests from verified copyright holders. This is reasonable, and in line with every other area of law. It is not the landlord's responsibility to ensure his tennants are not laundering money on his property. It is not the auto manufacturers responsibility to ensure his vehicles are not used as getaway vehicles. The goverment is not held liable when a drunk driver hits somebody walking on a public sidewalk. So in current (and any sane iteration of) copyright law, it is not the site's responsibility to ensure user-uploaded content never violates any copyright.

Author:  RangerDave [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Pirate-party.us has a right to political speech. It doesn't have a right to endorse or teach people how to break the law. If they want to maintain their right to political speech, they need to pare out the other kind.

On the contrary, people do have a First Amendment right to endorse violation of the law and even to explain how to get away with it. There's a narrow exception for incitement when the speech is both intended and likely to create an imminent breach of the peace, but it really is a very narrow exception.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

So, where's the line between conspiracy and free speech, then? Isn't conspiracy planning a crime? How does teaching somebody how to commit that crime, absent good faith judgements that the student is not going to commit them (say, teaching licensed locksmiths how to pick a new type of lock they might encounter on the job) not conspiring with them to commit the crime?

And, Talya -- I disagree. Copyright makes it illegal to distribute a copyrighted work without the express consent of the copyright holder. If I am hosting material on the internet, and allowing it to be accessed, I am distributing that work. We're not talking about a landlord, here -- the host is PROVIDING THE SERVICE OF DISTRIBUTION himself. We're not talking about an auto manufacturer building getaway vehicles, we're talking about the limo driver idling outside the bank robbery.

Author:  Talya [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
And, Talya -- I disagree. Copyright makes it illegal to distribute a copyrighted work without the express consent of the copyright holder. If I am hosting material on the internet, and allowing it to be accessed, I am distributing that work. We're not talking about a landlord, here -- the host is PROVIDING THE SERVICE OF DISTRIBUTION himself. We're not talking about an auto manufacturer building getaway vehicles, we're talking about the limo driver idling outside the bank robbery.



If that were true, at $150,000 per incident of infringement, Google's billions would be in the hands of the RIAA for Youtube infractions.

But it is NOT true. The RIAA doesn't sue Youtube, it just notifies them that a particular video's audio-content is copyrighted and Youtube complies with removing it.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:29 pm ]
Post subject: 

And I can't figure out why that's the case. The way I've read what copyright law I have, I can't figure out why they're not getting nailed for violations, rather than getting the chance to comply with a cease and desist. Probably because it's civil vs. criminal prosecution, and the criminal prosecution doesn't want to test the user agreements (where the user agrees not to upload copyrighted content) for some reason.

In any event, copyright is the sole right, supported by law, to distribute the copyrighted material, not the right, supported by law, to ask nicely first when you catch somebody else distributing it.

Author:  Müs [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

Because copyright law has to be enforced by the copyright holder?

If the copyright holder doesn't say "Hey, that's copyrighted" then there's no infraction.

Author:  RangerDave [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
So, where's the line between conspiracy and free speech, then?

Conspiracy requires an actual agreement between the parties to commit the crime. Encouraging others to commit a crime, even giving advice on how it could be done, is quite different than actually teaming up to do it.

Author:  DFK! [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

RangerDave wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
So, where's the line between conspiracy and free speech, then?

Conspiracy requires an actual agreement between the parties to commit the crime. Encouraging others to commit a crime, even giving advice on how it could be done, is quite different than actually teaming up to do it.


Conspiracy charges are far from that simple.

Author:  RangerDave [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

Oh I know, but in terms of differentiating between advocacy and conspiracy, the lack of agreement is key.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

But can you honestly suggest that pirate-party.us, when it writes an article on bittorrent, *isn't* in agreement with the reader when the reader then goes on to download copyrighted ****?

Author:  Xequecal [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: COICA

Actually, having actually read it, this bill is actually much worse than originally posted. Because it operates by imposing a blacklist on the Internet's root nameservers, this bill essentially allows the US government to dictate to the entire world what can and can not be accessed on the Internet. Remember, the US government or US companies own 10 of the 13 DNS nameservers, and have substantial control over the other three.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:10 am ]
Post subject: 

Then it would actually be effective. Nifty.

I should point out, that there are international agreements over the entire first world and 95% of the second world to honor each other's copyright laws.

Author:  Taskiss [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:48 am ]
Post subject: 

Blocking DNS is equivalent to refusing to publish a number in the phone book.

No speech is infringed upon.

Author:  Xequecal [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Taskiss wrote:
Blocking DNS is equivalent to refusing to publish a number in the phone book.

No speech is infringed upon.


What percentage of Internet-using people do you think actually know you can reach a site by typing in the IP address?

Author:  Taskiss [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Xequecal wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Blocking DNS is equivalent to refusing to publish a number in the phone book.

No speech is infringed upon.


What percentage of Internet-using people do you think actually know you can reach a site by typing in the IP address?

DNS offers a convenient method to advertise and access a site, sure. Still doesn't infringe on speech if it's blocked.

http://74.125.95.99

Author:  RangerDave [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
But can you honestly suggest that pirate-party.us, when it writes an article on bittorrent, *isn't* in agreement with the reader when the reader then goes on to download copyrighted ****?

Well, pretend for a minute that instead of piracy, the site is focused on something legal like buying a house. The site owner writes articles and hosts discussion forums advocating that people buy houses, providing advice on how to do it, and even linking to real estate agents, mortgage lenders, etc. Would you say the site owner and the readers have a mutual agreement to buy houses, that a subsequent purchase of a house by a reader is actually a joint undertaking with the site owner because the reader relies in part on advice/information he gleaned from the site owner's articles? Obviously not. Once you take away the criminality part of it, it's pretty clear that writing articles and hosting web sites on a topic doesn't establish any kind of agreement between the author/host and the readers to pursue a course of action together.

Author:  Hannibal [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

But doesn't intent factor into it RD?

If I post a website that gives a realistic how to guide on how to take down Marine 1 using easily obtained items and easily employed methods, would a reasonable person say that my intent was to have someone attempt to take down Marine 1? Or would a reasonable person say I was just attempting to host a discussion about what would be required to take down such a vehicle?

I think information should be free, but peoples intellectual property should not. Pirating things isn't justifiable, just rationalized.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Hannibal wrote:
But doesn't intent factor into it RD?

If I post a website that gives a realistic how to guide on how to take down Marine 1 using easily obtained items and easily employed methods, would a reasonable person say that my intent was to have someone attempt to take down Marine 1? Or would a reasonable person say I was just attempting to host a discussion about what would be required to take down such a vehicle?

I think information should be free, but peoples intellectual property should not. Pirating things isn't justifiable, just rationalized.


That's not such a great example because you're talking about taking down a specific helicopter and so a much stronger case can be made that you're advocating a specific course of action.

On the other hand, if you hosted a website on how one goes about shooting down helicopters in general, or how antiaircraft systems in general ought to be employed, or a study on improvised antiaircraft systems, that would be much closer to RDs example.

Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Diamondeye wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
But doesn't intent factor into it RD?

If I post a website that gives a realistic how to guide on how to take down Marine 1 using easily obtained items and easily employed methods, would a reasonable person say that my intent was to have someone attempt to take down Marine 1? Or would a reasonable person say I was just attempting to host a discussion about what would be required to take down such a vehicle?

I think information should be free, but peoples intellectual property should not. Pirating things isn't justifiable, just rationalized.


That's not such a great example because you're talking about taking down a specific helicopter and so a much stronger case can be made that you're advocating a specific course of action.

On the other hand, if you hosted a website on how one goes about shooting down helicopters in general, or how antiaircraft systems in general ought to be employed, or a study on improvised antiaircraft systems, that would be much closer to RDs example.


Not only that, but there are specific, exceptional laws when it comes to the POTUS.

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