The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 1:48 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:27 am
Posts: 2169
Surprised this hasn't made the board yet... There are multiple articles out there, but this one is in USA Today from last week.

Quote:
WASHINGTON — In a dispute that could affect consumers nationwide, the Supreme Court took up a case Tuesday revolving around the terms of a cellphone contract and testing when disgruntled customers can file a class-action lawsuit rather than be forced to arbitrate out of court.

The case, begun by a couple in California who were charged $30 in taxes for a "free" cellphone when they signed up for service, pits the terms of federal arbitration law against a state policy permitting class-action lawsuits.

The dispute has also set civil rights organizations, such as the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, against business groups including the Chamber of Commerce. The NAACP legal fund contends the leverage of class-action lawsuits are often the only way to protect consumers or deter employer misconduct. The chamber counters that arbitration serves both sides by eliminating costly and time-consuming litigation.

Tuesday's dispute could determine when a large number of people with small-dollar grievances may collectively obtain a court remedy. The legal question is whether the Federal Arbitration Act overrides California law that says an arbitration contract that bans class-action lawsuits cannot be enforced.

Vincent and Liza Concepcion brought a class-action lawsuit in 2006 against AT&T Mobility alleging fraud under California law because the company charged them for state taxes on what was supposed to be a "free" phone.

AT&T argued that the Concepcion's class-action claim was barred by a provision of their contract requiring any aggrieved customer to submit individual complaints to arbitration. But under California law, AT&T's categorical ban on class-action lawsuits was deemed "unconscionable," that is, so grossly one-sided that it could not be enforced.

Lower federal courts in California rejected AT&T's argument that the Federal Arbitration Act — which says states cannot discriminate against arbitration — pre-empted California law.

In its appeal, AT&T asserted that its arbitration provision favors consumers because a customer complaining about the phone tax can arbitrate for free and win a possible $7,500 remedy. It also said that if the Supreme Court invalidated its class-action ban, the result would hurt consumers because companies would end up passing on the potentially higher litigation costs.

The Supreme Court in recent cases has strengthened arbitration policy, over consumer complaints, and in agreeing to hear AT&T reinforced the notion that a corporation's interest in arbitration may again prevail. Yet, Tuesday's discussion was unusually dense and did not reveal how broadly a majority might rule. Much of the discussion focused on California's test for an "unconscionable" contract provision.

Andrew Pincus, arguing on behalf of AT&T, said California law wrongly considered how third parties and not just the Concepcions might be hurt by the terms of the cellphone deal. Pincus described the contract as "more than fair."

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg suggested that states might have wide latitude in their standards for when an arbitration deal will not be enforced: "Maybe across the board, California is saying: We think that unconscionability should have a broader meaning: Is it unfair to the weaker party to the bargain?"

Yet Justice Samuel Alito appeared more open to AT&T's position and noted that its arbitration provision could allow "nearly all consumers who pursue the informal claims process," rather than go to court, to be compensated promptly and in full.

Deepak Gupta, arguing on behalf of the Concepcions, urged the court to defer to California law and broadly consider all AT&T customers who were wronged.

"It's not a question of whether the Concepcions, once they have chosen to make a claim, whether the contract is fair to them; it's whether it's fair to any AT&T customer," Gupta said.

The state of California, he said, "has made a judgment that if you preclude class-wide relief, that will gut that state's substantive consumer protection laws because people will … not be able to bring those cases."

Siding with the Concepcions are Illinois, Maryland, Minnesota, Montana, New Mexico, Tennessee, Vermont and the District of Columbia.

They say federal courts should not second-guess decades of state contract law and they describe class-action suits as "an important complement to government efforts at safeguarding consumers against fraudulent and deceitful practices."

Two states, South Carolina and Utah, entered the case on the side of AT&T Mobility. They said class-action filings are not "necessary to vindicate consumer claims when consumers have the incentive and a full and fair opportunity to resolve their claims on an individual basis."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:10 am 
Offline
Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 5073
F at&t. I hope they get owned

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:56 pm 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Yeah I got a message about this. I thought it was about taxes on data plans. Or is that something else?

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:54 pm 
Offline
I got nothin.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:15 pm
Posts: 11160
Location: Arafys, AKA El Müso Guapo!
Image

_________________
Image
Holy shitsnacks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:44 pm 
Offline
Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 5073
meh, I am not too worried about the decision, I just hope they get **** by this somehow.

Good old "I am done with that this goes here" kind of ****.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:27 am
Posts: 2169
Yes, the initial law suit is about the taxes and fees applied to supposedly "Free" accounts.

However, the bigger issue for this case is the conflict between federal law/state law and the use of contracts to remove the ability to sue as a group.

Which side to you support, the ability of consumers to file class action law suits or not?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:03 am 
Offline
Has a plan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
Posts: 1584
It seems like California is erring a bit too far on the side of the consumer. It looks like they get to cherry pick whatever type of suit makes them the most money.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:20 pm 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
I'm not sure what I think about this in the general case. The bill of rights pertains to what the federal government is allowed to do (and in some cases the states, if we accept incorporation doctrine), not private citizens. We don't, for instance, generally object to NDA agreements, in which you waive your right to free speech.

However, waiving your right to access the judicial system seems problematic to me, like recursion gone awry. There is such a thing as an illegal contract. If such a contract had a private mitigation clause...what then? Chicken and the egg. Still, Congress is prohibited from "impairing the obligation of contract", so it's clear that congress is supposed to butt out of private contracts. But that's Congress, not the SCOTUS.

Gah.

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 263 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group