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When abortion turns into murder...
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Author:  Foamy [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  When abortion turns into murder...

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Article spoilered for longness.
Spoiler:
Quote:
Philadelphia (CNN) -- Allegedly running what the prosecutor calls "a house of horrors," a Philadelphia physician, Kermit Barron Gosnell, was charged Wednesday with murder and other offenses related to illegal, late-term abortions.

The doctor is accused of causing the death of one of his female patients and killing seven viable babies in illegal abortions, Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams said.

The babies were born alive in the sixth, seventh and eighth months of pregnancy, but their spinal cords were allegedly severed with scissors, Williams said in a statement.

Nine other people who worked in the west Philadelphia medical office, including Gosnell's wife and sister-in-law, also were charged, Williams said. The practice, called the Women's Medical Society, served mostly low-income minority women for years, he said.

Williams provided a grisly scenario of the shuttered abortion clinic: A search of the office last year by authorities found bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses scattered throughout the building. Jars containing the severed feet of babies lined a shelf. Furniture and equipment was blood-stained, dusty and broken.

In an interview with CNN, Williams described the abortion clinic as "horrific" and providing "botched and illegal abortions."

"It was a house of horrors beyond any type of definition or explanation I can humbly try to give," Williams told CNN. "And it's very sad for the women that were there, that were subjected to such horrific and barbaric -- I would say medical treatment but it wasn't medical -- treatment.

"My grasp of the English language doesn't really allow me to fully describe how horrific this clinic was -- rotting bodies, fetal remains, the smell of urine throughout, blood-stained," Williams continued.

He said women patients were often "very poor."

"The doctor gained a reputation. People far and wide knew that he performed abortions at any time," Williams said.

Williams described one of the alleged infant deaths.

"The baby had been born and was on a cold steel table and murdered by using -- there's no medical basis for snipping or taking scissors and putting them into the neck and cutting, severing the spinal cord. It's just homicide. It's just murder," Williams told CNN.

Gosnell's attorney, William J. Brennan of Philadelphia, told CNN he was surprised at the "length and breadth" of the grand jury's presentment and report against Gosnell and the nine other defendants. Gosnell is facing hundreds of counts, including charges for seven first-degree murders charges and a third-degree murder, according to Williams and the grand jury's 62-page presentment.

"The DA of Philadelphia, Seth Williams, is a good guy, and I have a lot of respect for him, but he played this so close to the vest that we were shocked at the number of charges," Brennan told CNN.

"I hope there is no rush to judgment in this case," Brennan continued. "Dr. Gosnell should enjoy the same presumption of innocence anyone in this country, you or me, should get if we were charged with a crime. In the process of reviewing the grand jury's presentment, which is several hundred pages, I understand that the charges are very serious, and we will need some time to read through the grand jury's presentment and its report."

Gosnell, 69, is not a board-certified obstetrician or gynecologist, Williams said.

Originally, he said, the clinic used another doctor as a consultant so it could receive a license to perform abortions in 1979.

Two primary state agencies, the Department of Health and the Department of State, have oversight, Williams said Wednesday at a news conference.

But a grand jury investigation found that health and licensing officials had received repeated reports about Gosnell's dangerous practices for two decades with no action taken, even after the agencies learned that women had died during routine abortions under Gosnell's care, the district attorney's statement said.

"What the (grand) jury found most troubling is that neither of those agencies took the time to investigate, to observe, to view, to go to the clinic itself since 1993," Williams said during the news conference.

"I am aware that abortion is a hot-button topic," Williams said in his statement. "But as district attorney, my job is to carry out the law. A doctor who knowingly and systematically mistreats female patients, to the point that one of them dies in his so-called care, commits murder under the law.

"A doctor who cuts into the necks severing the spinal cords of living, breathing babies, who would survive with proper medical attention, is committing murder under the law."

Gosnell is also accused of reusing unsanitary instruments; performing procedures in filthy rooms, including some having litter boxes and animals present during operations; and allowing unlicensed employees to perform operations and administer anesthesia, including a teenage high school student, Williams said.

Gosnell's wife, Pearl, 49, of Philadelphia, is also facing charges of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks, conspiracy and other related charges, Williams said. She has no medical license and is accused of performing illegal abortions at the clinic, he said.

Elizabeth Hampton, 51, of Philadelphia, who is Gosnell's sister-in-law, is facing charges of hindering prosecution, perjury, false swearing and obstructing administration of law.

Donald Schwarz, Philadelphia deputy mayor for health and opportunity and city health commissioner, said the city doesn't have jurisdiction over abortion clinics. The state has authority to regulate abortion providers, he said.

"For the city we view this as a terrible thing and a tragedy for the women and the families involved," Schwarz said.

"It's really frightening for women in the city. It highlights for many women what it must have been like to go into that exam room," he continued. "The way we deal with abortion is in secret, and for many, it's perceived as shameful and I'm sure that many of the women felt they didn't have other options.

"The message I want to get out is that reproductive health services in the city are safe. I don't want this to change women's views of the services," Schwarz said. "This was an unusual provider."

Law enforcement officers came upon "the medical abuses" while investigating tips that the doctor had been illegally selling thousands of prescriptions for OxyContin and other narcotics to "patients" that he never examined, Williams said.

The doctor himself was seldom present, the district attorney charged. In his absence, untrained, unsupervised workers, including the teenage girl, routinely injected sedatives into women undergoing illegal late-term abortions, he alleged.

Among numerous charges, Gosnell is accused of third-degree murder in the death of 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar, Williams said.

Mongar died on November 20, 2009, when she was overdosed with anesthetics prescribed by Gosnell, he said.

Gosnell is also facing seven murder charges in the deaths of infants allegedly killed after being born viable and alive during the sixth, seventh and eighth months of pregnancy in illegal, late-term abortions, Williams said.

Gosnell is also charged with infanticide, conspiracy, abortion at 24 or more weeks of pregnancy, corpse abuse, theft, corruption of minors, solicitation and other related offenses, he said.

Seven other employees at the clinic were also charged, according to the district attorney's statement:

-- Lynda Williams, 42, of Wilmington, Delaware, also is charged with third-degree murder in Mongar's death. Williams is accused of being an unlicensed worker who routinely performed illegal operations and administered anesthesia. She is also facing murder charges for the death of a viable baby born alive, abortion at 24 or more weeks and other related offenses.

-- Sherry West, 51, of Newark, Delaware, is charged with third-degree murder. She was allegedly an unlicensed worker at the clinic who routinely performed illegal operations and administered anesthesia. She is also facing a charge of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks and other related offenses.

-- Adrienne Moton, 33, of Upper Darby, Pennsylvania, is charged with murder in the death of a viable baby born alive. She was allegedly an unlicensed worker at the clinic who routinely and illegally administered anesthesia to patients.

-- Steven Massof, 48, of Pittsburgh, is facing murder charges for the deaths of two viable babies born alive. Massof, a medical school graduate without a license or any certification, allegedly worked as a doctor at the clinic. He is also facing conspiracy and other related charges.

-- Eileen O'Neill, 54, of Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, is a medical school graduate who allegedly worked as a doctor at the clinic without a license or certification. She is facing theft by deception, conspiracy, perjury and false swearing charges.

-- Tina Baldwin, 45, of Philadelphia, is facing charges of racketeering, conspiracy and corruption of a minor. She was allegedly an unlicensed worker at the clinic who illegally administered anesthesia to patients and allowed her 15-year-old daughter to administer anesthesia to patients as well.

-- Office manager Maddline Joe, 53, of Philadelphia, is charged with conspiracy.

I heard about this story last night on the local news. Can the abortion proponents argue that what he was doing OK? The filthy state of his office notwithstanding, what he was doing simply amounts to murder. How someone can deliver viable 6mo. - 9mo. babies and then murder them with scissors is beyond me.

What he did is beyond the pale. He needs to die a horrible painful, scissor induced death.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Foamy wrote:
I heard about this story last night on the local news. Can the abortion proponents argue that what he was doing OK? The filthy state of his office notwithstanding, what he was doing simply amounts to murder. How someone can deliver viable 6mo. - 9mo. babies and then murder them with scissors is beyond me.

What he did is beyond the pale. He needs to die a horrible painful, scissor induced death.


Comparing this to abortion is dishonest sensationalist tripe the same way as comparing homosexuality to pedophilia, or copyright violation to theft. They've got nothing in common, and aren't even related. You might as well start calling every murder an "abortion." While we're at it, we can call accidental death of adults "very late miscarriages."

Author:  Hannibal [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:08 am ]
Post subject: 

There is no political will by any DA to touch abortion. Even with such a blatent abuse like this. The only reason this monster was found was because of the perscription sting.

Author:  Hopwin [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:15 am ]
Post subject: 

Read the story yesterday. That place was utterly monstrous. Plus he killed that woman by botching her abortion. I thought the argument for legalizing abortions was that women wouldn't be forced to go to squalid places like this?

Author:  Rorinthas [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:20 am ]
Post subject: 

I think everyone here can agree this individual needs to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Any objections?

Author:  Hannibal [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:27 am ]
Post subject: 

I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Hannibal wrote:
I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner.


For political reasons? Or, maybe because delivering the baby then killing it is not an abortion?

Rorinthas wrote:
I think everyone here can agree this individual needs to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Any objections?


Does the state have capital punishment? If they do, they should fry him.

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Talya wrote:
Foamy wrote:
I heard about this story last night on the local news. Can the abortion proponents argue that what he was doing OK? The filthy state of his office notwithstanding, what he was doing simply amounts to murder. How someone can deliver viable 6mo. - 9mo. babies and then murder them with scissors is beyond me.

What he did is beyond the pale. He needs to die a horrible painful, scissor induced death.


Comparing this to abortion is dishonest sensationalist tripe the same way as comparing homosexuality to pedophilia, or copyright violation to theft. They've got nothing in common, and aren't even related. You might as well start calling every murder an "abortion." While we're at it, we can call accidental death of adults "very late miscarriages."


This.

Author:  Dash [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Talya wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner.


For political reasons? Or, maybe because delivering the baby then killing it is not an abortion?



So if he had the skill to do what he did in the womb this would be ok? Is your argument location?

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Dash wrote:
So if he had the skill to do what he did in the womb this would be ok? Is your argument location?


Are there no restrictions on late term abortions in the USA? If not, then legally, it would be "ok." With my personal ideal law, then no, it wouldn't be okay. I don't believe abortions should attack the fetus, they should induce labor or cause the womb to expel it--which at this stage, would no longer be lethal anyway. My ideal situation is not currently law, however.

Author:  Khross [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

What's the difference between this guy and George Tiller?

Author:  Screeling [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:53 am ]
Post subject: 

I know this! The name!

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Khross wrote:
What's the difference between this guy and George Tiller?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the abortions conducted by Tiller legal in that state?

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
What's the difference between this guy and George Tiller?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the abortions conducted by Tiller legal in that state?


I'd never heard of him, so I looked him up. At the very worst, they were misdemeanor offenses, which he was charged with and acquitted. So, as disgusting as his practice may have been, it doesn't appear he was guilty of any lawbreaking.

Author:  Hannibal [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Talya wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner.


For political reasons? Or, maybe because delivering the baby then killing it is not an abortion?

Rorinthas wrote:
I think everyone here can agree this individual needs to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Any objections?


Does the state have capital punishment? If they do, they should fry him.


Again, he wasn't even on any agencies radar for performing late term abortions. The ONLY reason he got caught is because of the perscriptions. Doesn't that give other pro choice folks pause? One of the biggest selling points is the clean, safe and regulated enviorment these clinics were supposed to be. That is all in question now. But instead of reviewing regulations, you know, making sure that these people are living up to their end of the abortion issue, its going to be paid lip service. I feel its because its too politically charged for people w political careears, and the other is that people don't want to own up to the reality of it.

Author:  NephyrS [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

It's why I'm personally a fan of limiting late term abortions to circumstances that severely threaten the life of the mother.

But yes, delivering a live child and then killing it is not what I would consider abortion- it's a delivery followed by murder.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

I don't understand your point, Hannibal. Does the continued existence of a few moonshiners and illegal unlicensed distilleries suddenly mean that repealling prohibition was a mistake, or somehow embarass those who drink?

This guys "clinic" (which sounds like it was basically "Joe's Tattoo and Boiler-Scraping Parlor") doesn't have anything to do with legitimate abortion clinics. Much like some wacko gunning down doctors who perform abortions has no bearing on the issue of abortion itself, neither does this. These weren't abortions.

Author:  Foamy [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Talya wrote:
These weren't abortions.


What were they, then? Murders, you say? He wasn't running a Murder clinic, it was an abortion clinic.

Women went there for abortions, not murders. They were induced to deliver their child for the express purpose of killing it.

Rationalize it however you like, it is still an abortion. This is the same process used in partial birth abortions only the timing is different: Labor induced, child crowns, spine severed, stillborn.

But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion?

Keep rationalizing it that way. It is murder anyway you look at it, I guess it just makes it easier for proponents to see it as such when the murder is hidden away in the womb.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Foamy wrote:
But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion?


Calling it an "abortion" excuses it as legal and alright. It's not an abortion. Once the child is born, it's legally a person, with all the legal rights of one. This is the current legal dividing line for personhood. The women may have gone there for an abortion, but that's not what he performed. These were murders.

If you want to say what this jackass did was fine, then by all means, call them abortions. I'd rather see him hung. Even calling them "illegal abortions" probably turns it from a life sentence into a misdemeanor or minor felony. Prosecute him to the full extent of the law. Anything less than murder is unacceptable.

Author:  Hopwin [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Talya wrote:
Foamy wrote:
But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion?


Calling it an "abortion" excuses it as legal and alright. It's not an abortion. Once the child is born, it's legally a person, with all the legal rights of one. This is the current legal dividing line for personhood. The women may have gone there for an abortion, but that's not what he performed. These were murders.

If you want to say what this jackass did was fine, then by all means, call them abortions. I'd rather see him hung. Even calling them "illegal abortions" probably turns it from a life sentence into a misdemeanor or minor felony. Prosecute him to the full extent of the law. Anything less than murder is unacceptable.

Are you seriously going to play retard on this?

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
Foamy wrote:
But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion?


Calling it an "abortion" excuses it as legal and alright. It's not an abortion. Once the child is born, it's legally a person, with all the legal rights of one. This is the current legal dividing line for personhood. The women may have gone there for an abortion, but that's not what he performed. These were murders.

If you want to say what this jackass did was fine, then by all means, call them abortions. I'd rather see him hung. Even calling them "illegal abortions" probably turns it from a life sentence into a misdemeanor or minor felony. Prosecute him to the full extent of the law. Anything less than murder is unacceptable.

Are you seriously going to play retard on this?


Are you? What, exactly, is your point? Killing unborn fetuses = Abortion. Killing babies already born = Murder. Clear, obvious, distinction. What's not to get?

Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Talya wrote:
Are you? What, exactly, is your point? Killing unborn fetuses = Abortion. Killing babies already born = Murder. Clear, obvious, distinction. What's not to get?


No, we get it - the point is it's retarded. 6 inches one direction, it's legal, 6 inches the other direction, it's murder.

Author:  NephyrS [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

And yet she's legally correct. Once the cord has been severed and it's on its own, it is legally considered to be an independent human and as such killing it is murder.

I think she (and I) have both been clear on the fact that we think late term (and so partial birth) abortions are morally wrong and should ideally not be legal.

But that doesn't change the fact that this was not an abortion- and that legally, there is a difference between 6 inches one way and 6 inches the other.

If a doctor in a delivery room delivered a non-induced baby and then killed it, would that be considered an abortion? No, it would be murder.

Our current legal standing is that once it is "on its own", killing it is murder, but not prior to that point. Disagreeing with whether that should be legal doesn't change that it is.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

NephyrS wrote:
I think she (and I) have both been clear on the fact that we think late term (and so partial birth) abortions are morally wrong and should ideally not be illegal.


I think you meant "should ideally not be legal." Or perhaps "should ideally be illegal." But yeah.

Author:  Dash [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When abortion turns into murder...

Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Talya wrote:
Are you? What, exactly, is your point? Killing unborn fetuses = Abortion. Killing babies already born = Murder. Clear, obvious, distinction. What's not to get?


No, we get it - the point is it's retarded. 6 inches one direction, it's legal, 6 inches the other direction, it's murder.


This is basically what I'm getting at too. Taly does seem to be arguing location makes you human or not and thus protected (or not) by the law.

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