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When abortion turns into murder... https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5284 |
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Author: | Foamy [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:01 am ] |
Post subject: | When abortion turns into murder... |
LINK Article spoilered for longness. Spoiler: I heard about this story last night on the local news. Can the abortion proponents argue that what he was doing OK? The filthy state of his office notwithstanding, what he was doing simply amounts to murder. How someone can deliver viable 6mo. - 9mo. babies and then murder them with scissors is beyond me. What he did is beyond the pale. He needs to die a horrible painful, scissor induced death. |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Foamy wrote: I heard about this story last night on the local news. Can the abortion proponents argue that what he was doing OK? The filthy state of his office notwithstanding, what he was doing simply amounts to murder. How someone can deliver viable 6mo. - 9mo. babies and then murder them with scissors is beyond me. What he did is beyond the pale. He needs to die a horrible painful, scissor induced death. Comparing this to abortion is dishonest sensationalist tripe the same way as comparing homosexuality to pedophilia, or copyright violation to theft. They've got nothing in common, and aren't even related. You might as well start calling every murder an "abortion." While we're at it, we can call accidental death of adults "very late miscarriages." |
Author: | Hannibal [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:08 am ] |
Post subject: | |
There is no political will by any DA to touch abortion. Even with such a blatent abuse like this. The only reason this monster was found was because of the perscription sting. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:15 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Read the story yesterday. That place was utterly monstrous. Plus he killed that woman by botching her abortion. I thought the argument for legalizing abortions was that women wouldn't be forced to go to squalid places like this? |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:20 am ] |
Post subject: | |
I think everyone here can agree this individual needs to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law. Any objections? |
Author: | Hannibal [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:27 am ] |
Post subject: | |
I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner. |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Hannibal wrote: I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner. For political reasons? Or, maybe because delivering the baby then killing it is not an abortion? Rorinthas wrote: I think everyone here can agree this individual needs to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law. Any objections? Does the state have capital punishment? If they do, they should fry him. |
Author: | Aizle [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Talya wrote: Foamy wrote: I heard about this story last night on the local news. Can the abortion proponents argue that what he was doing OK? The filthy state of his office notwithstanding, what he was doing simply amounts to murder. How someone can deliver viable 6mo. - 9mo. babies and then murder them with scissors is beyond me. What he did is beyond the pale. He needs to die a horrible painful, scissor induced death. Comparing this to abortion is dishonest sensationalist tripe the same way as comparing homosexuality to pedophilia, or copyright violation to theft. They've got nothing in common, and aren't even related. You might as well start calling every murder an "abortion." While we're at it, we can call accidental death of adults "very late miscarriages." This. |
Author: | Dash [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Talya wrote: Hannibal wrote: I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner. For political reasons? Or, maybe because delivering the baby then killing it is not an abortion? So if he had the skill to do what he did in the womb this would be ok? Is your argument location? |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Dash wrote: So if he had the skill to do what he did in the womb this would be ok? Is your argument location? Are there no restrictions on late term abortions in the USA? If not, then legally, it would be "ok." With my personal ideal law, then no, it wouldn't be okay. I don't believe abortions should attack the fetus, they should induce labor or cause the womb to expel it--which at this stage, would no longer be lethal anyway. My ideal situation is not currently law, however. |
Author: | Khross [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
What's the difference between this guy and George Tiller? |
Author: | Screeling [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:53 am ] |
Post subject: | |
I know this! The name! |
Author: | Aizle [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:12 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Khross wrote: What's the difference between this guy and George Tiller? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the abortions conducted by Tiller legal in that state? |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Aizle wrote: Khross wrote: What's the difference between this guy and George Tiller? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the abortions conducted by Tiller legal in that state? I'd never heard of him, so I looked him up. At the very worst, they were misdemeanor offenses, which he was charged with and acquitted. So, as disgusting as his practice may have been, it doesn't appear he was guilty of any lawbreaking. |
Author: | Hannibal [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Talya wrote: Hannibal wrote: I feel for political reasons, they will not even associate him with abortions. I think the media and the DAs will ignore the gorilla in the corner. For political reasons? Or, maybe because delivering the baby then killing it is not an abortion? Rorinthas wrote: I think everyone here can agree this individual needs to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law. Any objections? Does the state have capital punishment? If they do, they should fry him. Again, he wasn't even on any agencies radar for performing late term abortions. The ONLY reason he got caught is because of the perscriptions. Doesn't that give other pro choice folks pause? One of the biggest selling points is the clean, safe and regulated enviorment these clinics were supposed to be. That is all in question now. But instead of reviewing regulations, you know, making sure that these people are living up to their end of the abortion issue, its going to be paid lip service. I feel its because its too politically charged for people w political careears, and the other is that people don't want to own up to the reality of it. |
Author: | NephyrS [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
It's why I'm personally a fan of limiting late term abortions to circumstances that severely threaten the life of the mother. But yes, delivering a live child and then killing it is not what I would consider abortion- it's a delivery followed by murder. |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I don't understand your point, Hannibal. Does the continued existence of a few moonshiners and illegal unlicensed distilleries suddenly mean that repealling prohibition was a mistake, or somehow embarass those who drink? This guys "clinic" (which sounds like it was basically "Joe's Tattoo and Boiler-Scraping Parlor") doesn't have anything to do with legitimate abortion clinics. Much like some wacko gunning down doctors who perform abortions has no bearing on the issue of abortion itself, neither does this. These weren't abortions. |
Author: | Foamy [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Talya wrote: These weren't abortions. What were they, then? Murders, you say? He wasn't running a Murder clinic, it was an abortion clinic. Women went there for abortions, not murders. They were induced to deliver their child for the express purpose of killing it. Rationalize it however you like, it is still an abortion. This is the same process used in partial birth abortions only the timing is different: Labor induced, child crowns, spine severed, stillborn. But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion? Keep rationalizing it that way. It is murder anyway you look at it, I guess it just makes it easier for proponents to see it as such when the murder is hidden away in the womb. |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Foamy wrote: But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion? Calling it an "abortion" excuses it as legal and alright. It's not an abortion. Once the child is born, it's legally a person, with all the legal rights of one. This is the current legal dividing line for personhood. The women may have gone there for an abortion, but that's not what he performed. These were murders. If you want to say what this jackass did was fine, then by all means, call them abortions. I'd rather see him hung. Even calling them "illegal abortions" probably turns it from a life sentence into a misdemeanor or minor felony. Prosecute him to the full extent of the law. Anything less than murder is unacceptable. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Talya wrote: Foamy wrote: But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion? Calling it an "abortion" excuses it as legal and alright. It's not an abortion. Once the child is born, it's legally a person, with all the legal rights of one. This is the current legal dividing line for personhood. The women may have gone there for an abortion, but that's not what he performed. These were murders. If you want to say what this jackass did was fine, then by all means, call them abortions. I'd rather see him hung. Even calling them "illegal abortions" probably turns it from a life sentence into a misdemeanor or minor felony. Prosecute him to the full extent of the law. Anything less than murder is unacceptable. Are you seriously going to play retard on this? |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Hopwin wrote: Talya wrote: Foamy wrote: But because the baby came out and then he severed the spine that, somehow in your world, makes it not an abortion? Calling it an "abortion" excuses it as legal and alright. It's not an abortion. Once the child is born, it's legally a person, with all the legal rights of one. This is the current legal dividing line for personhood. The women may have gone there for an abortion, but that's not what he performed. These were murders. If you want to say what this jackass did was fine, then by all means, call them abortions. I'd rather see him hung. Even calling them "illegal abortions" probably turns it from a life sentence into a misdemeanor or minor felony. Prosecute him to the full extent of the law. Anything less than murder is unacceptable. Are you seriously going to play retard on this? Are you? What, exactly, is your point? Killing unborn fetuses = Abortion. Killing babies already born = Murder. Clear, obvious, distinction. What's not to get? |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Talya wrote: Are you? What, exactly, is your point? Killing unborn fetuses = Abortion. Killing babies already born = Murder. Clear, obvious, distinction. What's not to get? No, we get it - the point is it's retarded. 6 inches one direction, it's legal, 6 inches the other direction, it's murder. |
Author: | NephyrS [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
And yet she's legally correct. Once the cord has been severed and it's on its own, it is legally considered to be an independent human and as such killing it is murder. I think she (and I) have both been clear on the fact that we think late term (and so partial birth) abortions are morally wrong and should ideally not be legal. But that doesn't change the fact that this was not an abortion- and that legally, there is a difference between 6 inches one way and 6 inches the other. If a doctor in a delivery room delivered a non-induced baby and then killed it, would that be considered an abortion? No, it would be murder. Our current legal standing is that once it is "on its own", killing it is murder, but not prior to that point. Disagreeing with whether that should be legal doesn't change that it is. |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
NephyrS wrote: I think she (and I) have both been clear on the fact that we think late term (and so partial birth) abortions are morally wrong and should ideally not be illegal. I think you meant "should ideally not be legal." Or perhaps "should ideally be illegal." But yeah. |
Author: | Dash [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: When abortion turns into murder... |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Talya wrote: Are you? What, exactly, is your point? Killing unborn fetuses = Abortion. Killing babies already born = Murder. Clear, obvious, distinction. What's not to get? No, we get it - the point is it's retarded. 6 inches one direction, it's legal, 6 inches the other direction, it's murder. This is basically what I'm getting at too. Taly does seem to be arguing location makes you human or not and thus protected (or not) by the law. |
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