The Glade 4.0 :: View topic - The logical extension of extending citizenship to fetus

Spoiler:

GOP Georgia state Rep. Bobby Franklin has a well-deserved reputation as being "out there" -- this year he has proposed legislation that would do away with driver's licenses and that would make sexual assault victims be referred to only as "accusers" (not victims) until there was a conviction, and he has (re: DADT) equated gays with "unrepentant drug users". However, since a Daily Kos post last Thursday (Feb. 17), he's been getting a bad rap as proposing that "all miscarriages be investigated by Uterus Police" (I'm paraphrasing blog language - only slightly). See

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/1 ... scarriages

In fact, the legal language that people are upset about (and as far as I can tell, because of one person's misreading of the proposed legislation's markup) IS ALREADY IN PLACE: in Georgia, all spontaneous fetal deaths (miscarriages) must be reported. The intent of Franklin's legislation is to outlaw abortion and possibly there's some risk of the existing language being used to start an investigation of a "suspicious" miscarriage, but that's not a given.

The full text of Franklin's House Bill 1 is available here: http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en- ... tion=31965

Check the existing Georgia law (via LexisNexis): Georgia Code, TITLE 31. HEALTH, CHAPTER 10. VITAL RECORDS, § 31-10-18. "Registration of spontaneous fetal deaths".

The REAL interesting part of his proposed bill is where he says that the Supreme Court (as in Roe v. Wade) has no authority over the states...

I don't deny that he is a "wingnut" with "whackadoodle" ideas, but it really bothers me that such imprecise information as "Georgia Representative Wants To Investigate All Miscarriages" can propagate so rapidly. As of this this evening (2/21/11), a Google search on that exact phrase gets 87 results for the past week, 61 of which are for the past 24 hours. A search on "georgia 'uterus police'" has 17,600 result for any time and of which 16,000 are for the past week.

On February 20, someone added this sentence to Bobby Franklin's Wikipedia entry, with a citation for the proposed legislation:

"In House Bill 1, a bill Franklin proposed that would outlaw abortion, a provision is included that would require that every 'spontaneous fetal death' have its cause investigated by the 'proper investigating official.'"

There's plenty of reason for outrage in the world, but this is not one.

A Facebook friend posted this link (with accompanying statement of outrage -- which I initially echoed) which got me started on the story: "Georgia Legislator Wants To Investigate Miscarriages, Create Uterus Police" at http://blogs.babble.com/being-pregnant/ ... us-police/

Author:	TheRiov [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:	The logical extension of extending citizenship to fetus
http://www.change.org/petitions/do-not- ... o-miscarry Have not had time to verify but if true.....

Author:	Lex Luthor [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:20 pm ]
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Quote: Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Nope, not citizens.

Author:	Lenas [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:20 pm ]
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Georgia leading the crazy train.

Author:	Hopwin [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:03 pm ]
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What's the bill #?

Author:	Lenas [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:
31965 http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en- ... tion=31965 http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20112012/108128.pdf

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The logical extension of extending citizenship to fetus https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5561	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Vindicarre [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:10 pm ]
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Bill here Got it from (believe it or not) The Daily Show's forum: Spoiler: GOP Georgia state Rep. Bobby Franklin has a well-deserved reputation as being "out there" -- this year he has proposed legislation that would do away with driver's licenses and that would make sexual assault victims be referred to only as "accusers" (not victims) until there was a conviction, and he has (re: DADT) equated gays with "unrepentant drug users". However, since a Daily Kos post last Thursday (Feb. 17), he's been getting a bad rap as proposing that "all miscarriages be investigated by Uterus Police" (I'm paraphrasing blog language - only slightly). See http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/1 ... scarriages In fact, the legal language that people are upset about (and as far as I can tell, because of one person's misreading of the proposed legislation's markup) IS ALREADY IN PLACE: in Georgia, all spontaneous fetal deaths (miscarriages) must be reported. The intent of Franklin's legislation is to outlaw abortion and possibly there's some risk of the existing language being used to start an investigation of a "suspicious" miscarriage, but that's not a given. The full text of Franklin's House Bill 1 is available here: http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en- ... tion=31965 Check the existing Georgia law (via LexisNexis): Georgia Code, TITLE 31. HEALTH, CHAPTER 10. VITAL RECORDS, § 31-10-18. "Registration of spontaneous fetal deaths". The REAL interesting part of his proposed bill is where he says that the Supreme Court (as in Roe v. Wade) has no authority over the states... I don't deny that he is a "wingnut" with "whackadoodle" ideas, but it really bothers me that such imprecise information as "Georgia Representative Wants To Investigate All Miscarriages" can propagate so rapidly. As of this this evening (2/21/11), a Google search on that exact phrase gets 87 results for the past week, 61 of which are for the past 24 hours. A search on "georgia 'uterus police'" has 17,600 result for any time and of which 16,000 are for the past week. On February 20, someone added this sentence to Bobby Franklin's Wikipedia entry, with a citation for the proposed legislation: "In House Bill 1, a bill Franklin proposed that would outlaw abortion, a provision is included that would require that every 'spontaneous fetal death' have its cause investigated by the 'proper investigating official.'" There's plenty of reason for outrage in the world, but this is not one. A Facebook friend posted this link (with accompanying statement of outrage -- which I initially echoed) which got me started on the story: "Georgia Legislator Wants To Investigate Miscarriages, Create Uterus Police" at http://blogs.babble.com/being-pregnant/ ... us-police/ Looks to be a case of reading comprehension fail + confirmation bias = liberal outrage.

Author:	Lenas [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:14 pm ]
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It's not a crazy miscarriage law, but it would still make abortions illegal. From the pdf: Quote: 'Prenatal murder' means the intentional removal of a fetus from a woman with an intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus; provided, however, that if a physician makes a medically justified effort to save the lives of both the mother and the fetus and the fetus does not survive, such action shall not be prenatal murder. Such term does not include a naturally occurring expulsion of a fetus known medically as a 'spontaneous abortion' and popularly as a 'miscarriage' so long as there is no human involvement whatsoever in the causation of such event

Author:	Hopwin [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
Vindicarre wrote: There's plenty of reason for outrage in the world, but this is not one. Looks to be a case of reading comprehension fail + confirmation bias = liberal outrage. Sadly that is what happens with these hot button issues. That's why I asked for the specific bill # since the original link didn't reference it anywhere on their page or in their letter of protest.

Author:	Aizle [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Hopwin wrote: Vindicarre wrote: There's plenty of reason for outrage in the world, but this is not one. Looks to be a case of reading comprehension fail + confirmation bias = liberal outrage. Sadly that is what happens with these hot button issues. That's why I asked for the specific bill # since the original link didn't reference it anywhere on their page or in their letter of protest. Yeah, except the concerns raised in the OP are valid.

Author:	Hopwin [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Aizle wrote: Hopwin wrote: Vindicarre wrote: There's plenty of reason for outrage in the world, but this is not one. Looks to be a case of reading comprehension fail + confirmation bias = liberal outrage. Sadly that is what happens with these hot button issues. That's why I asked for the specific bill # since the original link didn't reference it anywhere on their page or in their letter of protest. Yeah, except the concerns raised in the OP are valid. Or not. New portion of the law: Quote: 114 (2) 'Prenatal murder' means the intentional removal of a fetus from a woman with an 115 intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus; provided, however, 116 that if a physician makes a medically justified effort to save the lives of both the mother 117 and the fetus and the fetus does not survive, such action shall not be prenatal murder. 118 Such term does not include a naturally occurring expulsion of a fetus known medically 119 as a 'spontaneous abortion' and popularly as a 'miscarriage' so long as there is no human 120 involvement whatsoever in the causation of such event. Existing law (http://law.onecle.com/georgia/31/31-10-18.html): Quote: 197 Said title is further amended by revising subsection (a) of Code Section 31-10-18, relating 198 to registration of spontaneous fetal deaths, as follows: 199 "(a) A report of spontaneous fetal death for each spontaneous fetal death which occurs in 200 this state shall be filed with the local registrar of the county in which the delivery occurred 201 within 72 hours after such delivery in accordance with this Code section unless the place 202 of fetal death is unknown, in which case a fetal death certificate shall be filed in the county 203 in which the dead fetus was found within 72 hours after such occurrence. All induced 204 terminations of pregnancy shall be reported in the manner prescribed in Code Section 205 31-10-19. Preparation and filing of reports of spontaneous fetal death shall be as follows: 206 (1) When a dead fetus is delivered in an institution, the person in charge of the institution 207 or that person's designated representative shall prepare and file the report; 208 (2) When a dead fetus is delivered outside an institution, the physician in attendance at 209 or immediately after delivery shall prepare and file the report; 210 (3) When a spontaneous fetal death required to be reported by this Code section occurs 211 without medical attendance at or immediately after the delivery or when inquiry is 212 required by Article 2 of Chapter 16 of Title 45, the 'Georgia Death Investigation Act,' the 213 proper investigating official shall investigate the cause of fetal death and shall prepare 214 and file the report within 30 days; and 215 (4) When a spontaneous fetal death occurs in a moving conveyance and the fetus is first 216 removed from the conveyance in this state or when a dead fetus is found in this state and 217 the place of fetal death is unknown, the fetal death shall be reported in this state. The 218 place where the fetus was first removed from the conveyance or the dead fetus was found 219 shall be considered the place of fetal death." In other words, they already report miscarriages and "investigate" them to the same degree that they investigate any human death (aka document the cause of death). You are welcome to say the sentiments expressed in the OP are valid but that doesn't change the fact that the bill they are targetting has nothing to do with the reporting/investigation of pre-natal deaths.

Author:	Aizle [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:20 am ]
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It doesn't invalidate my statement. Further, assuming that abortions are legal today, it adds an element of criminality to those investigations that likely isn't there today.

Author:	Hopwin [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Aizle wrote: It doesn't invalidate my statement. Further, assuming that abortions are legal today, it adds an element of criminality to those investigations that likely isn't there today. No it makes abortions illegal. Flat-out. In black and white. Any abortion performed would now be murder. Any pre-natal death would be documented and sent to the state as it is now the only difference is that under the new law if cause of death is abortion then a criminal case is opened.

Author:	Khross [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The logical extension of extending citizenship to fetus
Wow, so much ignorance going on here ... 1. Georgia prohibits "partial birth abortions" and late term abortions already. These prohibitions have held up in court. 2. The law doesn't prohibit abortions at all, because basic abortion procedural already kills the fetus and dismembers it in utero in the first place. 3. This law would actually allow for partial birth abortions in survival of the mother situations if every attempt was made to save both parties. But, you know, whatever ... Ignorance + Failure in Reading Comprehension + Confirmation Bias = Idiots Talking ****.

Author:	Lenas [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:12 pm ]
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I'm sorry for being an idiot, Khross, but the way I can take this: Quote: 'Prenatal murder' means the intentional removal of a fetus from a woman with an intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus; .. is to read, "intentional abortions are murder." The only other way to take it is to assume that the bill maker is okay with abortions so long as the fetus is killed in utero and removed after death, in which case the bill seems kind of unnecessary.

Author:	darksiege [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:50 am ]
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Highest abortion rate because even Georgian's do not want to be responsible for bringing another Georgian into the world.

Author:	Khross [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
darksiege wrote: :) Highest abortion rate because even Georgian's do not want to be responsible for bringing another Georgian into the world. Funny that you say that ... Georgia happens to be the fastest growing state, population wise, in the nation. Atlanta remains the fast growing city in the country. It seems people want to move here for some reason or another.

Author:	Hopwin [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:47 am ]
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Perhaps it is the high proportion of blacks...

Author:	Lenas [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Khross wrote: Georgia happens to be the fastest growing state, population wise, in the nation. Atlanta remains the fast growing city in the country. It seems people want to move here for some reason or another. Interesting that you assume the population is booming for good reason.

Author:	Khross [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The logical extension of extending citizenship to fetus
Lenas: Bill is response to a few induced labor abortions that got the mother killed. It's also an attempt to clarify the existing legal language. There's nothing outrageous going on here.

Author:	Hopwin [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The logical extension of extending citizenship to fetus
Khross wrote: Wow, so much ignorance going on here ... 1. Georgia prohibits "partial birth abortions" and late term abortions already. These prohibitions have held up in court. 2. The law doesn't prohibit abortions at all, because basic abortion procedural already kills the fetus and dismembers it in utero in the first place. 3. This law would actually allow for partial birth abortions in survival of the mother situations if every attempt was made to save both parties. But, you know, whatever ... Ignorance + Failure in Reading Comprehension + Confirmation Bias = Idiots Talking **. Not to herp on your derp there, but article I of the bill states: Quote:** 14 (a) The State of Georgia has the duty to protect all innocent life from the moment of 15 conception until natural death. We know that life begins at conception. After nearly four 16 decades of legal human prenatal murder, it is now abundantly clear that the practice has 17 negatively impacted the people of this state in many ways, including economic, health, 18 physical, psychological, emotional, and medical well-being. These, too, are areas of 19 legitimate concern and duty of this state. The General Assembly therefore makes the 20 following findings of fact: 21 (1) A fetus is a person for all purposes under the laws of this state from the moment of 22 conception; 23 (2) The Georgia Constitution, at Article I, Section I, Paragraph II, provides: 'Protection 24 to person and property is the paramount duty of government and shall be impartial and 11 LC 21 0916 H. B. 1 - 2 - 25 complete. No person shall be denied the equal protection of the laws.' Because a fetus 26 is a person, constitutional protection attaches at the moment of conception. It is therefore 27 the duty of the General Assembly to protect the innocent life that is being taken; How can you argue that this doesn't make abortion murder in that a fetus is now a person and abortion takes that person's life?

Author:	Khross [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The logical extension of extending citizenship to fetus
Hopwin: Eh, because it honestly doesn't. Georgia's not exactly one of those states likely to run up against Roe v. Wade any time soon, seeing as how it's got one of the highest abortion rates in the country (and a rising one at that).

Author:	Hopwin [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:44 pm ]
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I don't think anyone expects this bill to pass but if it did abortion would become murder.

Author:	darksiege [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Lenas wrote: Interesting that you assume the population is booming for good reason. I attribute all population booms to the same factor.... Your town sucks and there is nothing else to do but ****. That is how Pawtucket was when I was a teenager. "Well we got high... now lets get laid"

Author:	Lenas [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:19 am ]
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One of the highest abortion rates in the country and simultaneously one of the fastest-growing states in the country. I'm going to go ahead and guess that they're both connected to low education/intelligence more than they're connected to boredom. I don't think Atlanta would be that boring, anyway It's not like living out in Montana.

Author:	darksiege [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:40 am ]
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Meh, I am just being a dick.

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