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Forget gold; buy helium! https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5600 |
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Author: | RangerDave [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Forget gold; buy helium! |
Outside the Beltway wrote: Here’s the thing about helium: for many industrial applications, there is no substitute for helium. For MRI’s, there’s no substitute for helium. None. When supplies run low, operations have to cease. Period. End of story. Here’s another thing about helium: what we have on Earth is all we got. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. So that helium you suck into your lungs to make your voice high pitched? Once it’s out of your mouth, it’s gone. It can’t be used again. Here’s the third thing: there is, as of yet, no way to produce more helium. Right now in the circles studying the matter, the cheapest way to get more helium once it’s gone from Earth is to go to the Moon and mine it.
Let me repeat that: once the Earth’s helium is depleted, the cheapest way to get more helium is to get it from the Moon. Now, let’s return to the Helium Reserves. In 1996, Congress passed the Helium Privatization Act, which directed the Secretary of the Interior to sell off the entire Helium Reserve by 2015. Of course, this was at a time when there were more uses for Helium than ever. But here’s the problem: the price that the helium is being sold at in order to deplete the reserves by 2015 is incredibly below market. It’s practically a liquidation sale. But the low prices are necessary in order to meet the Congressional directive to eliminate the helium reserve. What’s more, not only is helium being sold below market, but getting rid of the helium reserves is creating a temporary glut in supply. As a consequence, helium is too cheap. Far, far, too cheap. So there’s no incentive to recycle it (possible in industrial applications). Right now, once it’s used, it’s gone. As a result, it’s estimated that the world could actually run out of helium in as little as 30 years. It’s because of this that the National Research Council recommended that helium reserve prices be set to market, rather than an arbitrary price, and that some reserves are kept in place. If they’re not, the NRC estimates that the United States could become a net importer of helium, a dwindling resource, within a decade. Let me remind everyone again: once the helium is gone, the cheapest way to get more is to get it from the Moon. |
Author: | NephyrS [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Forget gold; buy helium! |
RangerDave wrote: Outside the Beltway wrote: Here’s the thing about helium: for many industrial applications, there is no substitute for helium. For MRI’s, there’s no substitute for helium. None. When supplies run low, operations have to cease. Period. End of story. Here’s another thing about helium: what we have on Earth is all we got. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. So that helium you suck into your lungs to make your voice high pitched? Once it’s out of your mouth, it’s gone. It can’t be used again. Here’s the third thing: there is, as of yet, no way to produce more helium. Right now in the circles studying the matter, the cheapest way to get more helium once it’s gone from Earth is to go to the Moon and mine it. Let me repeat that: once the Earth’s helium is depleted, the cheapest way to get more helium is to get it from the Moon. Now, let’s return to the Helium Reserves. In 1996, Congress passed the Helium Privatization Act, which directed the Secretary of the Interior to sell off the entire Helium Reserve by 2015. Of course, this was at a time when there were more uses for Helium than ever. But here’s the problem: the price that the helium is being sold at in order to deplete the reserves by 2015 is incredibly below market. It’s practically a liquidation sale. But the low prices are necessary in order to meet the Congressional directive to eliminate the helium reserve. What’s more, not only is helium being sold below market, but getting rid of the helium reserves is creating a temporary glut in supply. As a consequence, helium is too cheap. Far, far, too cheap. So there’s no incentive to recycle it (possible in industrial applications). Right now, once it’s used, it’s gone. As a result, it’s estimated that the world could actually run out of helium in as little as 30 years. It’s because of this that the National Research Council recommended that helium reserve prices be set to market, rather than an arbitrary price, and that some reserves are kept in place. If they’re not, the NRC estimates that the United States could become a net importer of helium, a dwindling resource, within a decade. Let me remind everyone again: once the helium is gone, the cheapest way to get more is to get it from the Moon. Bolding mine. I'm not so sure about industrial applications, but for MRI's this point is not strictly true. You'd lose a little bit of contrast, but I'm not sure it would even be noticable. The easiest gas to switch to would probably be liquid Hydrogen, although Liquid Neon or Liquid Nitrogen should both be workable. Also, since helium is almost always used as a lightweight, inert gas, it is replaceable by any number of other gasses for most purposes I can think of- procedures would just need some modifications. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Forget gold; buy helium! |
NephyrS wrote: The easiest gas to switch to would probably be liquid That sounds really, really hard. |
Author: | NephyrS [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Ha. Ha. |
Author: | Lex Luthor [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Actually, it's been proven that if you heat liquid it can turn into gas. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Lex Luthor wrote: Actually, it's been proven that if you heat liquid it can turn into gas. Then it's not a liquid anymore, is it? |
Author: | Xequecal [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Forget gold; buy helium! |
I always thought the point of helium in MRIs was to cool the magnets down to superconducting temperatures, I don't think liquid nitrogen is cold enough for that. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:58 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Um... how do you use up an element? |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Hopwin wrote: Um... how do you use up an element? You either involve it in nuclear processes, or allow it to escape our atmosphere. Helium's light (well, "undense") enough that it will do the latter. |
Author: | Ienan [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Forget gold; buy helium! |
Or it chemically bonds and becomes unusable. We deplete oxygen (which makes up a small part of our atmospheric gases) everyday. Fortunately, other organisms, such as bacteria and plants replenish it. And humans replenish carbon dioxide along with many other organisms. |
Author: | TheRiov [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:57 am ] |
Post subject: | |
seems odd that we could run low on the second most abundunt element in the universe... but atmospheric helium apparently has the tendency to escape earths gravity. (Lighter gasses have higher speed and can achieve escape velocity much easier than more heavier gasses such as O2 which is 8x more massive than He. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:18 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Forget gold; buy helium! |
Ienan wrote: Or it chemically bonds and becomes unusable. We deplete oxygen (which makes up a small part of our atmospheric gases) everyday. Fortunately, other organisms, such as bacteria and plants replenish it. And humans replenish carbon dioxide along with many other organisms. Chemical bonds don't make it unusable. They just require an impractical energy investment to make them useful again. |
Author: | Ienan [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Forget gold; buy helium! |
Kaffis Mark V wrote: Ienan wrote: Or it chemically bonds and becomes unusable. We deplete oxygen (which makes up a small part of our atmospheric gases) everyday. Fortunately, other organisms, such as bacteria and plants replenish it. And humans replenish carbon dioxide along with many other organisms. Chemical bonds don't make it unusable. They just require an impractical energy investment to make them useful again. For all practical purposes, that's what I meant. Any chemical bond can be broken given the right amount of energy and the right chemical reaction. At least of any I know. |
Author: | Corolinth [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:05 am ] |
Post subject: | |
If we'd pull the sticks out of our butt that we have regarding nuclear power, we might stumble across some miracle reaction that produces helium. |
Author: | TheRiov [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:11 am ] |
Post subject: | |
I don't think there is any major opposition to fusion power. Helium is produced naturally by radioactive decay. (helium=Alpha particle) and in solar wind (how its deposited on the moon iirc) |
Author: | NephyrS [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Forget gold; buy helium! |
Xequecal wrote: I always thought the point of helium in MRIs was to cool the magnets down to superconducting temperatures, I don't think liquid nitrogen is cold enough for that. Superconducting temperatures are entirely dependent on the material the magnet is made of. There are superconducting materials that work at much higher than 4 K.... That said, liquid hydrogen will get you down to around 20k, which should be enough for even the current magnets, I would think. Not positive, though. You might lose some resolution with the rise, but it's not like the technology will no longer work, it will just have to be tweaked. |
Author: | Vindicarre [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
TheRiov wrote: I don't think there is any major opposition to fusion power. |
Author: | TheRiov [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
? ok. I'll bite. |
Author: | Lenas [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Really? There's huge opposition to nuclear fusion because everyone is still freaked the **** out after Chernobyl. |
Author: | TheRiov [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
thats Fission. Fission reactors involve the cascade splitting of high energy atoms, uranium, plutonium mostly. The byproducts of which involve a lot of nasty radioactive material. The reaction rate must be carefully controlled else you have something like Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. Fusion is almost the exact opposite process by which very light elements are fused into heavier elements/isotopes. Its a process we have not mastered in a controlled sense. We know it WORKS (its what fuels stars) and the primary byproducts are stable, nonradioactive elements such as helium. The problem its we have not been able to reliably sustain it in exothermic way (you have to put more energy in than you get out) The danger of a runaway reaction is almost non-existant, and the fuel source is all but unlimited. |
Author: | Lenas [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I'm sorry I got the terminology wrong. Does the general public know the difference? Would they both be taking place in a nuclear reactor/facility? If the answer is yes, then your clarification means nothing, because the public still doesn't trust anything having to do with nuclear facilities. |
Author: | Lex Luthor [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
78.8% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power. |
Author: | TheRiov [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Lenas wrote: I'm sorry I got the terminology wrong. Does the general public know the difference? Would they both be taking place in a nuclear reactor/facility? If the answer is yes, then your clarification means nothing, because the public still doesn't trust anything having to do with nuclear facilities. In a theoretical fusion reactor? no. Only Fusion would be occuring. No radiation producing fuel. No dangerous waste. And cold-fusion has been in the news for 20 years (most of it bunk) but yes, I sincerely hope that most the population of the US understands the difference. (at least those motivated enough to object.) Fusion has long been considered to be the ultimate clean energy. |
Author: | Lex Luthor [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
It's not the "ultimate" clean energy but it is one and definitely something we should use much more. Hydro-electric is clean. Solar and wind power are other developing options. Currently the technology is too weak for these, but it's been improving greatly. |
Author: | TheRiov [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
in the end, nearly all power on earth is Fusion power. |
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