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 Post subject: More Federal crazieness.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:10 am 
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http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/03/bew ... ty_tr.html

By James Wesley, Rawles on March 30, 2011 8:28 PM

I’ve been in law enforcement for the past 18 years. I have attended a variety of training over those years. During the 1990s, most training I attended was community-oriented, sponsored by local agencies or private companies specializing in police training. Themes common to training of the past included topics such as Constitutional rights, community partnerships, youth-oriented programs and problem-oriented policing.

During the past several years, I have witnessed a dramatic shift in the focus of law enforcement training. Law enforcement courses have moved away from a local community focus to a federally dominated model of complete social control. Most training I have attended over the past two years have been sponsored by Department of Homeland Security (DHS), namely the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

No matter what topic the training session concerns, every DHS sponsored course I have attended over the past few years never fails to branch off into warnings about potential domestic terrorists in the community. While this may sound like a valid officer and community safety issue, you may be disturbed to learn how our Federal government describes a typical domestic terrorist.

These federal trainers describe the dangers of “extremists” and “militia groups” roaming the community and hiding in plain sight, ready to attack. Officers are instructed how to recognize these domestic terrorists by their behavior, views and common characteristics. State data bases are kept to track suspected domestic terrorists and officers are instructed on reporting procedures to state and federal agencies. The state I work in, like many others, have what is known as a “fusion center” that compiles a watch list of suspicious people.

So how does a person qualify as a potential domestic terrorist? Based on the training I have attended, here are characteristics that qualify:

* Expressions of libertarian philosophies (statements, bumper stickers)
* Second Amendment-oriented views (NRA or gun club membership, holding a CCW permit)
* Survivalist literature (fictional books such as "Patriots" and "One Second After" are mentioned by name)
* Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)
* Fear of economic collapse (buying gold and barter items)
* Religious views concerning the book of Revelation (apocalypse, anti-Christ)
* Expressed fears of Big Brother or big government
* Homeschooling
* Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties
* Belief in a New World Order conspiracy

A recent training session I attended encouraged law enforcement agencies to work with business owners to alert police when customers appear to be stockpiling items. An example was given that a federal agent was monitoring customers at a well known hunting and fishing retail outlet and noting who was purchasing certain items. This is something to remember the next time you purchase a case of ammo at one of these popular outdoor sports retail stores.

Methods of developing evidence of terrorist activity from virtually any search have also been discussed. Various common materials which may be associated with homemade explosives are listed, such as lengths of pipe, gunpowder, matches, flammable liquids and fireworks. Officers are told when these items are found, they can be listed as “bomb making materials”. The training even goes so far as to instruct officers that the items are cleverly disguised as legitimate, such as gasoline stored near a lawn mower, pipes stored in a shop building or gunpowder stored with reloading materials.

One course I attended used the example of a person employed as a plumber being the target of a search warrant. In this example, the officers were told how to use his employment as a plumber as further evidence of terrorism. The suspect’s employment would be described as an elaborate scheme to justify possessing pipes and chemicals so as to have bomb making materials readily available. Based on this example, all plumbers are potential pipe bomb makers. All gun dealers are plotting to provide arms to gangs or terrorists. All pest control companies are preparing mass poisonings. By using this logic, simply having the ability to do something criminal automatically makes the person guilty of plotting the crime. With all the various methods of manufacturing methamphetamine, it would also be easy to claim that a disassembled clandestine drug lab was located during the search. In other words, it is easy to frame anyone for possessing bomb making materials (or other crimes) if the officer knows what items to list in the report and how to link these items to terrorism.

Another common tactic used in DHS sponsored training is the slander of certain ideologies by linking an erroneous characteristic to a particular group. Here are some examples:

* These groups hold the anniversaries of certain dates as significant such a Ruby Ridge, Waco and Hitler’s birthday
* They oppose abortion, support gun rights and are affiliated with the Ku Klux Klan
* They are fearful of big government, espouse support for the Constitution and want to kill police officers
* These groups collect firearms, survivalist books and explosives
* These extremists read books such as Patriots, One Second After and The Anarchist Cookbook
* They are religious zealots, reading the book of Revelation, speak of the second coming of Christ and plan mass murders to summon the end of the world
* These people grow their own food, raise livestock and plot attacks on commercial food production facilities

Do you see how this tactic works? List common characteristics of libertarian/conservative minded people, then throw in a slanderous accusation. If A and B apply, then you should automatically presume C applies as well. If they were disturbed by the incidents at Ruby Ridge and Waco, then obviously they must celebrate Hitler’s birthday. Officers are being conditioned to assume criminal and terroristic views when politically-incorrect views are observed. As simple-minded and ridiculous as this line of thinking is, there are some officers who unfortunately buy into this.

Another training session I attended two years ago discussed the dangerous of people who have strong views of the U.S. Constitution. One trainer made the statement that “these people actually believe the Second Amendment gives them the personal right to own a gun.” Of course, the trainer failed to mention that our Founding Fathers, as well as recent Supreme Court rulings, verify this view as being completely accurate. The obvious attempt here was to suggest to officers that the Second Amendment does not apply to individual gun ownership and to be suspicious of anyone who holds such a view. It was also stressed to be cautious of anyone who quotes the Constitution and even worse, actually possesses a copy of this radical document. Incredibly, in the United States of America today belief in our founding legal principles is now grounds for being labeled a domestic terrorism. Imagine how they would respond to some of the known statements of Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry or George Mason concerning the issue of individual liberty and limited government. It is true that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

There are several things that we, the patriotic, self-sufficient defenders of liberty can do to counter this effort. First, get involved in local elections. Elect county sheriffs who will not fall for such propaganda nor go along with oppressive federal agendas. Elect city council members who will not tolerate such behavior by their city police department. Elect state representatives who will hold state agencies accountable for participating in such tactics. Bring these issues up during elections, demand a public statement on their position on such propaganda and a promise to stand against these efforts while in office.

Second, get to know your local law enforcement officers. It is much more difficult for DHS to brainwash officers against people they personally know. When you are viewed as a neighbor, friend or fellow Christian, these officers are far less likely to submit your name to a terrorist watch list or view you as a potential terrorist. We want local officers to be personally offended when they hear members of their community slandered in such ways.

Third, always be friendly and courteous when speaking to your local officers. Even if that officer has fallen for this propaganda, be sure not to resemble the negative stereotypes labeled to us. After the fifth, sixth or maybe tenth time he deals with one of us, he or she may come to realize we are of no threat to law enforcement or anyone for that matter. Eventually, the officer may attend one of these training sessions, hear the propaganda and say to himself, “This isn’t true, I’ve dealt with many people like this, they are God-fearing, liberty loving Americans, they are not the enemy!”

I hope you find this information useful. Please remember that there are many people in law enforcement that have not, and will never, fall for DHS propaganda. Some of the most patriotic defenders of liberty and believers in self-sufficiency can be found in law enforcement. Officers like me will continue to do our part to fight tyranny from within while the general public can do its part by electing liberty-minded candidates to office and educating their friends and neighbors about issues important to all of us.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:26 am 
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Honestly survivalists have always scared the **** out of me. The post above smacks of paranoia and sensationalism.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:33 am 
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The training even goes so far as to instruct officers that the items are cleverly disguised as legitimate, such as gasoline stored near a lawn mower, pipes stored in a shop building or gunpowder stored with reloading materials.


Seriously? No way....
Maybe this guy is embellishing things. I find that hard to believe that everything happened exactly as presented here...plumbers using their professions to disguise terrorism?
I dunno...this all seems a little far-fetched.

According to this article, Elm, you're a domestic terrorist and should already be on several government watch lists.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:34 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Honestly survivalists have always scared the **** out of me. The post above smacks of paranoia and sensationalism.


I guess you'd have to give us your definition of survivalist. How do you feel about preppers?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:38 am 
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What are preppers?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:42 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
What are preppers?

Spoiler:
Image

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:45 am 
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I thought those were preppies? And what do they have to do with survivalists? I'm so confused.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:46 am 
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Geeze, Hopwin, you almost made me spit an entire mouthful of cereal onto my monitor.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:54 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Honestly survivalists have always scared the **** out of me. The post above smacks of paranoia and sensationalism.


I guess you'd have to give us your definition of survivalist.

Good question. I fear anyone who thinks the government is out to get them. I fear people who stockpile (as in more than two) weapons and cases of ammunition. I fear people who learn bomb making skills. I fear people who don't believe in the basic decency of the overwhelming majority of society. I fear people who think Waco was a vast conspiracy. I fear people who run around doomsaying and expressing the desire or willingness to shoot on sight.

People who want to learn to be self-sufficient I am good with. Peoplw who want to set aside some food, supplies or build shelters I am good with.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:55 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
I thought those were preppies? And what do they have to do with survivalists? I'm so confused.


That's kinda the point of using the term prepper (one who prepares) because it hasn't been chained to the negative associations yet. So instead of conjuring images of a grizzled vietnam vet sitting in a homemade bunker sleeping on a bed of ammo and MREs, it conjures images of Bear Gryllis or a Les Stroud making a jungle hammock.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:57 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
I thought those were preppies? And what do they have to do with survivalists? I'm so confused.


That's kinda the point of using the term prepper (one who prepares) because it hasn't been chained to the negative associations yet. So instead of conjuring images of a grizzled vietnam vet sitting in a homemade bunker sleeping on a bed of ammo and MREs, it conjures images of Bear Gryllis or a Les Stroud making a jungle hammock.

If Bear Grylls and Les Stroud are preppers then I am more terrified of them then anyone else... they drink their own pee for chrissake!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:58 am 
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I think I like the term survivalist better...it doesn't have any negative connotations for me, but when you say prepper, it's too close to the term "fluffer."

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:59 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Honestly survivalists have always scared the **** out of me. The post above smacks of paranoia and sensationalism.


Have you read some of the official memos and offically endorsed reports, and officially sanctioned reports that made regular rounds over the past few years?

There has been more than one official training pamphlet given to local police by Federal agencies that lists as suspicious activity "talking about the Constitution".

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:01 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Honestly survivalists have always scared the **** out of me. The post above smacks of paranoia and sensationalism.


I guess you'd have to give us your definition of survivalist.

Good question. I fear anyone who thinks the government is out to get them. I fear people who stockpile (as in more than two) weapons and cases of ammunition. I fear people who learn bomb making skills. I fear people who don't believe in the basic decency of the overwhelming majority of society. I fear people who think Waco was a vast conspiracy. I fear people who run around doomsaying and expressing the desire or willingness to shoot on sight.

People who want to learn to be self-sufficient I am good with. Peoplw who want to set aside some food, supplies or build shelters I am good with.


Hop, if you're gonna prepare for an economic crisis by setting aside food, supplies, and building shelters...you're also going to have to have guns and ammo. If we have such a catastrophic collapse that we have to resort to growing our own food, there will be hoards of starving people coming for your food and supplies, and they will resort to violence. Even humans will get all feral when they are starving and at the mercy of the elements with little to no hope for the future. Most people do not know how to survive in the sense that we are currently discussing. (I would do just fine.)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:02 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Honestly survivalists have always scared the **** out of me. The post above smacks of paranoia and sensationalism.


I guess you'd have to give us your definition of survivalist.

Good question. I fear anyone who thinks the government is out to get them. I fear people who stockpile (as in more than two) weapons and cases of ammunition. I fear people who learn bomb making skills. I fear people who don't believe in the basic decency of the overwhelming majority of society. I fear people who think Waco was a vast conspiracy. I fear people who run around doomsaying and expressing the desire or willingness to shoot on sight.

People who want to learn to be self-sufficient I am good with. Peoplw who want to set aside some food, supplies or build shelters I am good with.


Do you fear people who have this knowlege, do you fear the implied threat those skills could produce, or do you fear an intent? The reason I ask is because I've never associated leaning a skill or knowing how something works or is made to be an indication of intent.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:03 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Quote:
The training even goes so far as to instruct officers that the items are cleverly disguised as legitimate, such as gasoline stored near a lawn mower, pipes stored in a shop building or gunpowder stored with reloading materials.


Seriously? No way....
Maybe this guy is embellishing things. I find that hard to believe that everything happened exactly as presented here...plumbers using their professions to disguise terrorism?
I dunno...this all seems a little far-fetched.

According to this article, Elm, you're a domestic terrorist and should already be on several government watch lists.



I know for a fact I am on three state watch lists.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:05 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
Quote:
The training even goes so far as to instruct officers that the items are cleverly disguised as legitimate, such as gasoline stored near a lawn mower, pipes stored in a shop building or gunpowder stored with reloading materials.


Seriously? No way....
Maybe this guy is embellishing things. I find that hard to believe that everything happened exactly as presented here...plumbers using their professions to disguise terrorism?
I dunno...this all seems a little far-fetched.

According to this article, Elm, you're a domestic terrorist and should already be on several government watch lists.



I know for a fact I am on three state watch lists.


They confused you with Al Elmo et Mohammed.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:07 am 
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Hahahaha! Why does that not surprise me, Elm?
Such a fine line between "potential domestic terrorist" and "survivalist."
Pretty much, whatever goes outside of the norms and mores of society is feared, especially when guns are involved.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:16 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Hahahaha! Why does that not surprise me, Elm?
Such a fine line between "potential domestic terrorist" and "survivalist."
Pretty much, whatever goes outside of the norms and mores of society is feared, especially when guns are involved.


Well the then Governor denounced the lists that were generated by the company he hired to create them as useless. They incorporated pretty much any group that was organized that they could find that disagreed with any Federal policy. I did some writing for Parevolution.com (a state based news aggregate service and civil rights awareness and one in which the founder was mentioned by name in the reports.), I attended a gun march in Harrisburg, I attended an End the Fed Rally in Philly. Also on the lists were farmers groups, peace groups, any sporting club and on and on further into the realm of paranoid but in this case the paranoia of the list maker to not include anything they found odd.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:46 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
Do you fear people who have this knowlege, do you fear the implied threat those skills could produce, or do you fear an intent? The reason I ask is because I've never associated leaning a skill or knowing how something works or is made to be an indication of intent.

Your comment doesn't carry water. How many people go to mechanics school with no intention of working on cars? How many people go to flight school with no intention of ever flying? How many people learn Spanish but never speak it? The overwhelming majority of people learn to do something because you intend to utilize it.

However all of the above is a strawman and we could poke it back and forth with anecdotes and other silliness that certain Hellfire posters are famous for. What you really want to know is why I fear these people correct? My answer is that I stereotype them. The most vocal representatives of the survivalist movement are in fact paranoid extremists. Has the government rounded up people who own firearms en masse? Does the ATF take the existing state lists of firearm owners and kick in doors? Has a government agent come calling on Elmo based on his postings on this board?

On the flipside I have to acknowledge that there are also no stories of militia groups forming compounds and taking pot-shots at trespassers (excluding Waco). You also don't hear about hermits shooting trespassers on sight with any regularity.

So all things being equal I am going to default to siding against the people who openly tell everyone that if worst comes to worst they'll shoot you stone dead before they'd try to help you. Not because I am entitled to your goods or property, but because I believe people should help people and because I believe these people are the ones who would become the marauders of the post-apocalyptic world they envision and in some cases long for. After all the ethos behind this is survival of the fitest no?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:39 am 
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Hopwin, thinking of it in terms of learning first aid may help you. You learn first aid so that, should the need arise, you are prepared. It's the same mindset for survivalists, I believe. They stockpile not because they want to use it, but so that they are prepared should the need ever arise. Kinda like it's too late to learn first aid if you're already bleeding to death.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:06 am 
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That's a valid point, Buliwyf, and not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think Hop may be trying to point out that there are way too many people with way too much, er, *enthusiasm* in this preparedness thing...almost like they are either looking forward to and/or willing to help it along if you catch my drift.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:11 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
Quote:
The training even goes so far as to instruct officers that the items are cleverly disguised as legitimate, such as gasoline stored near a lawn mower, pipes stored in a shop building or gunpowder stored with reloading materials.


Seriously? No way....
Maybe this guy is embellishing things. I find that hard to believe that everything happened exactly as presented here...plumbers using their professions to disguise terrorism?
I dunno...this all seems a little far-fetched.

According to this article, Elm, you're a domestic terrorist and should already be on several government watch lists.



I know for a fact I am on three state watch lists.


Based on your postings here, this doesn't surprise me in the least. And frankly law enforcement would be lax in their duties if you weren't.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:13 am 
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I wonder if The Glade itself is on a watchlist somewhere.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:19 am 
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Someone who routinely makes death threats against public officials and stocks up on guns is on a watch list... I don't see the big surprise here. Seems like they're doing their jobs actually.


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