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Silent Genocide
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Author:  Corolinth [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Silent Genocide
There are a lot of accusations of baby-murdering any time there is an abortion debate, and it has occurred to me that we see very little of the same sort of character assassination from the pro-abortion side. Surely, there are ad hominem attacks, but they lack the weight of hurling about claims of silent genocide.

That's an interesting statement: silent genocide. Think about it. That phrase paints a rather specific picture of abortion, doesn't it? I can just imagine all of the expectant mothers cackling maniacally as they knife their stomachs to excise the unwanted fetuses gestating inside. It certainly distracts me from the reality of abortion, which is quite different. While I'm certain that there are families who decide to abort a pregnancy at the last minute, like in a recent thread, most abortions are performed for a very different kind of woman. As a man, I sometimes ponder the sticky ethical implications of a father who wants a child in the face of a woman who intends to abort, like what happened to Hopwin, but again, that is not the reality of most abortions.

The typical abortion is performed for a single woman who is never going to receive a dime from the baby's father. Women like a young lady my family knows who thought she was going to be getting married to a young exchange student from Germany that she'd been dating, a young man who conspicuously never returned to school for the Fall semester after she got pregnant. Women like my ex-girlfriend, who was in a rather emotionally abusive relationship, returned home, and then found out she was pregnant. Now, one could point out that neither of these women were making responsible decisions, and they'd be perfectly correct. That's rather the point. The typical abortion candidate (whether she goes through with it or not) is a young woman who is not making responsible decisions. She is also in what may be the single most traumatic experience in her life. Any woman who has ever been pregnant can tell us pregnancy is no picnic, and we'd mostly be hearing from women who were married to husbands with stable jobs at the time. They didn't have to face the prospect of bearing and raising that child alone, nor did they have to face the stigma of being a knocked-up baby-momma for nine months.

Anti-abortion advocates think that it's proper and tasteful to descend upon emotionally vulnerable young women like a pack of ravening wolves, and call them murderers. These women haven't actually gotten abortions, yet, mind you, and many of them haven't even begun to consider it. That's good for anti-abortion advocates. It means they can ram the guilt down their throats, and push their religious beliefs off onto a young woman who's scared and alone. It's a lot like deathbed conversions, in a way, and it's every bit as low and despicable. Meanwhile, these people have the unmitigated gall to claim they're motivated by compassion.

That is, in a way, perhaps the most insulting and offensive aspect of the anti-abortion advocates: the claim that they are "pro-life." The demographic that opposes abortion is the same demographic that most actively supports the "War on Terror," and most actively supports capital punishment. Pro-life they certainly are not. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds. It is not enough to prey on frightened pregnant women, they also have to insult everyone else's intelligence by telling us they feel life is sacred.

Of course, what abortion post would be complete without some mention of Planned Parenthood, that horrible slaughterhouse that serves ten million baby-burgers anually? I've actually had experience with Planned Parenthood. I had to drive a friend over to a clinic to be treated for early stages of ovarian cancer. She was a charity case, and didn't have the finances to receive treatment anywhere else. Her reproductive capabilities were actually saved. This is something I would think people who profess such a great love of children would appreciate, but I've long since accepted that religious ferver overrides sense and reason on this issue. The simple fact of the matter is that anti-abortion advocates are nothing more than a group of rabid jackals who get off on guilt-tripping impressionable and vulnerable teenage girls. They are contemptible human refuse, and it is long past time to stop attempting to reason with them as civilized human beings.

**** you all, and enjoy your abortion thread.
Author:  Rynar [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
I suppose it would be easier to just lob a shitload of hasty generalizations, fiat declarations, and broad brush stokes at the wall, see if any stick, and run away feigning indignation. I assume that's why Monty embraced the tactic.

Was that really worth typing out, much less placing where other people could read it?
Author:  Vindicarre [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Silent Genocide
Corolinth wrote:
There are a lot of accusations of baby-murdering any time there is an abortion debate, and it has occurred to me that we see very little of the same sort of character assassination from the pro-abortion side.

Your whole post was a fine example. Didn't have to look too long, or too hard, did you?

Corolinth wrote:
**** you all, and enjoy your abortion thread.

Who's abortion thread? Oh that's right, yours. I guess that means you can take your own self-righteous advice, and go **** yourself.
Author:  Wwen [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Silent Genocide
I'm addicted to abortions.
Author:  Hannibal [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:36 am ]
Post subject: 
If people want to off their spawn good for them. However that removes their standing to impose any of their moralities on me.
Author:  Dash [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Silent Genocide
I actually find the pro abortion people to be quite angry, violent and in your face about their positions. This issue brings out the crazies from all angles granted, but that's been my personal observation.

I thought the women with coat hangers and fake blood smeared on themselves were especially subtle...

http://zombietime.com/walk_for_life/

Spoiler:
Image


Spoiler:
Image


Having said that, the pro lifers that show up with the dead baby pics depress the **** out of me. I'm still technically pro choice but I lean much more pro life since becoming a father.
Author:  Wwen [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm regressive. Against abortion. For killing babies.
Author:  Rynar [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Wwen wrote:
I'm regressive. Against abortion. For killing babies.


I'm even more regressive than that.
Author:  Raltar [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:04 am ]
Post subject: 
My anti-abortion stance has nothing to do with religion or even baby murdering(I feel the world would be a better place if people stopped having children because children suck). I am anti-abortion because I don't like people being able to just say **** the consequences of risky behavior. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have unprotected sex. Pretty **** simple. I know it doesn't always work, but the chances of it not working are so insignificant that it is a freak accident when it does happen. You can always double up(pill plus condom or other combinations) as well to reduce the risk even further. Or get your tubes tied/vasectomy. Problem solved.

It is so **** easy to avoid getting pregnant if you actually take responsibility for your actions.
Author:  LadyKate [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:00 am ]
Post subject: 
I was a 21 year old college drop-out and a pot-smoking hippie who spent my spare change on cigarettes instead of food (I was 105lbs) and dating an emotional explosive meth addict when I found out I was pregnant with my son.
I did not have an abortion. I had my kid, he lived, I lived, we were homeless for awhile, I went back to college with no support (found a sweet old german lady to babysit for beans while I worked and went to school) and we made it.
I know women who were in similar situations who did not make the same choice that I did...I know two that regret it and cry constantly, even years later, and the other never thinks about it and it doesn't bother her at all.
Abortion is never an easy decision and no situation is cut and dry.
It breaks my heart that women still choose to have abortions, but I try to reserve judgement...you never know until you've walked a mile in someone elses shoes.
However, if you are in the category of women that have several abortions instead of using birth control....I can't hold back the hate, I'm sorry.
Author:  Hopwin [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Perhaps if parents stopped bailing kids out of trouble, maybe if there was no safety net, possibly if there were better role-models in society, perchance if there was any measure of personal responsibility in America abortions wouldn't be an issue.

At COSI in Columbus they have a bicycle on a tight right suspended with a counterweight 4 stories off the ground which anyone can ride forwards and backwards across the tight rope. There is also a "safety net" beneath it. While the net adds nothing to safety (based on the weight of the counter-weight) how many people would ride that bike if the net was not there?
Author:  Nitefox [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:34 am ]
Post subject: 
The biggest piece of crap about that rant is the death penalty vs abortion argument.

Abortion...killing an unborn, done nothing to nobody, innocent human being because you don't want it messing up your life. Never mind that you took on the chance at that responsibility by engaging in sex.

Death penalty...the punishing of someone who committed an act so terrible that he/she should have their life taken.

Yeah, those two things are the same...

Anyway...one of the biggest arguments I hear from the anti death penalty pro abortion folks against putting people to death is, "well, what if they didn't really do it? We would be killing an innocent person! It's better to ere on the side of caution!!". Yet if you get them cornered about when life begins, they will usually come around and say "well, we just don't know." But hey, let's keep killing babies anyway right?

I tell ya what, let's give the unborn the same treatment as we give those who face the death penalty. Seeing how as a person who gets the death penalty usually gets to hang around for another 20 years on appeals and things like that, any woman who wants an abortion should have to wait 20 years. Then at that time, we can go to court and see if the abortion should be carried out. Seems fair to me.
Author:  LadyKate [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:38 am ]
Post subject: 
That's actually a good point, Hop....I perceive there to be much less consequence for personal behavior than there was when I was growing up and even less since the generations before me.
There seems to be more parents bailing out their kids and less parents allowing their children to suffer through natural consequences.
As a parent who once was a child of parents who did the extreme "tough love" thing, I naturally want to coddle the **** out of my kid...and I will admit that has not done HIM any favors, but it sure as hell has made ME feel better...I'm willing to bet I'm not the only parent making that mistake.
Author:  Taskiss [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
Nitefox wrote:
I tell ya what, let's give the unborn the same treatment as we give those who face the death penalty.

Anyone accused has the right to face their accuser.

I think it's worth mentioning that in every single case, absolutely and without reservation, abortion takes life from an innocent.
Author:  Xequecal [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Silent Genocide
Abortion/death penalty is not a good comparison, a better comparison would be the foreign wars, both abortion and the wars involve killing a lot of people to ostensibly make a society better. There's also a huge hypocrisy inherent in being opposed to abortion yet wanting to cut all foreign aid like many conservatives...in both situations, you're not killing the innocents, you're just not feeding and sheltering them anymore.

Beyond that, the fact is abortion is a necessary evil in a society where people wait until 25+ to get married. Remember that any rationale that outlaws abortion would also nix many forms of birth control, as they will cause a chemical abortion some percentage of the time.
Author:  Elmarnieh [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Ah you suffer under the false belief that foreign aid benefits innocents.
Author:  Screeling [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:44 am ]
Post subject: 
**sigh**
Author:  Talya [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Taskiss wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
I tell ya what, let's give the unborn the same treatment as we give those who face the death penalty.

Anyone accused has the right to face their accuser.

I think it's worth mentioning that in every single case, absolutely and without reservation, abortion takes life from an innocent.


This is if you go with the entirely metaphysical argument that the "person" or "human being" begins at conception. As this argument is entirely religious and utterly unsupported by biology or science, I take exception to governments basing any law upon it.
Author:  LadyKate [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:10 am ]
Post subject: 
We spent an entire summer in our ethics class in college debating when "life", as we could define it for legal purposes, actually began.
We never could find definitive to proof to make a solid claim on an exact timeline....I think that was the whole purpose of the class though, to show that there was no way to prove or legally define when life began in a way that leave no room for argument.
Author:  Lex Luthor [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
LadyKate wrote:
We spent an entire summer in our ethics class in college debating when "life", as we could define it for legal purposes, actually began.
We never could find definitive to proof to make a solid claim on an exact timeline....I think that was the whole purpose of the class though, to show that there was no way to prove or legally define when life began in a way that leave no room for argument.


There's no current way to do either. It doesn't mean that one way isn't better than the other, just that we don't have solid enough logic either way yet.
Author:  Elmarnieh [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Talya wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
I tell ya what, let's give the unborn the same treatment as we give those who face the death penalty.

Anyone accused has the right to face their accuser.

I think it's worth mentioning that in every single case, absolutely and without reservation, abortion takes life from an innocent.


This is if you go with the entirely metaphysical argument that the "person" or "human being" begins at conception. As this argument is entirely religious and utterly unsupported by biology or science, I take exception to governments basing any law upon it.



Except for the fact that it is totally supported by biology (which is a science).
Author:  Lex Luthor [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Elmarnieh:

Why isn't it illegal to kill an amoeba? You seem to care a lot about single-celled organisms.
Author:  LadyKate [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Lex Luthor wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
We spent an entire summer in our ethics class in college debating when "life", as we could define it for legal purposes, actually began.
We never could find definitive to proof to make a solid claim on an exact timeline....I think that was the whole purpose of the class though, to show that there was no way to prove or legally define when life began in a way that leave no room for argument.


There's no current way to do either. It doesn't mean that one way isn't better than the other, just that we don't have solid enough logic either way yet.


Yeah, I know. Sad though.

I've always believed that life began at conception and that a life as a zygote and a life as a full-term fetus were the same...but I'll share something disturbing with you that I have not been able to rectify:
(Hidden for TMI)
Spoiler:
We lost a baby at 8 months, held him in our arms-fully-formed, and it was devastating. We lost a baby at 6 months, held her in our arms, fully formed, and it was devastating. We had a miscarriage at 8 weeks, and I held the little embryo with amniotic sac in my hand and it was not devastating. It was sad, but not devastating....I did not see that little embryo the same way I saw the other two babies. I have not been able to figure this out, since I have always believed that life begins when the sperm and egg meet...after experiencing this though, I have to admit that I'm rather confused now.
Author:  Talya [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Talya wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Anyone accused has the right to face their accuser.

I think it's worth mentioning that in every single case, absolutely and without reservation, abortion takes life from an innocent.


This is if you go with the entirely metaphysical argument that the "person" or "human being" begins at conception. As this argument is entirely religious and utterly unsupported by biology or science, I take exception to governments basing any law upon it.



Except for the fact that it is totally supported by biology (which is a science).


No. While it is true that the field of Genetics supports conception as a description of when "human life" begins, but when "human life" begins is irrelevant, as by these standards, any lump of living cells is "human life" -- including a skin culture in a petrie dish. What is necessary to determine for these purposes is when the "person" or "human being" begins, and this is something else entirely. In developmental biology, determining this would be some synthesis of the Neurological view of when human life begins (recognizable brainwaves on an EEG at somewhere around 25 weeks) and the Ecological/Technological view (the point when an individual can exist separately from the environment in which it was dependent for development.) A third method often used by the pro-choice movement is equally useless, the "point of Self-Consciosness," as this is utterly metaphysical as well.


This is why I still propose "inducing labor" in all cases instead of "abortion." If the developing fetus is strong enough to live outside the womb, then it gets to live. If not, it is not any person that killed it, but it's own lack of developmental health, so we do not need to worry about whether or not we're "killing babies."
Author:  Elmarnieh [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Elmarnieh:

Why isn't it illegal to kill an amoeba? You seem to care a lot about single-celled organisms.



First lets get to the root of your issue as to why you assume legality defines morality. Do you lack an adequate moral compass of your own and thus seek the opinion of others as codified in some books as a surrogate morality or is it some other reason?
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