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ATGM hits civilian bus in Israel
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Author:  Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  ATGM hits civilian bus in Israel

Seattle Times

Quote:
Missile from Gaza hits Israeli school bus; 2 hurt
By ARON HELLER
Associated Press

An anti-tank missile fired from the Gaza Strip struck a school bus in southern Israel Thursday, wounding two people, including one critically, Israeli officials said, prompting the fiercest Israeli retaliation on the coastal territory since a broad military offensive two years ago.

Israel unleashed airstrikes and tank fire against Hamas targets across the border, killing three people and wounding 33 others, including four critically, said Palestinian health official Adham Abu Salmiya.

He said one dead man was a 50-year-old civilian who was sitting outside his home when he was struck by tank fire. Two other men, in their 20s, were killed near the southern Gaza town of Rafah. It was unclear if they were civilians or militants.

The sudden outbreak of violence illustrated the fragile situation along the Israel-Gaza border, where small bouts of fighting can quickly escalate into heavy-scale warfare.

After two years of relative calm, tensions have been rising between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza over the past few weeks. For Israel, Thursday's attack was the most serious of this period.

But it also laid the groundwork for a major strategic breakthrough. The Israeli military activated a new cutting-edge missile-defense system for the first time, saying that the Iron Dome scored a direct hit on an incoming Palestinian rocket.

The escalation has also spilled beyond Israel's borders.

In the past month, Israel has intercepted a cargo ship that it said was carrying arms bound for Gaza, jailed an alleged Hamas rocket mastermind believed to have been captured in Ukraine and been accused of carrying out a mysterious airstrike that killed two people in Sudan. Israel has not commented on this week's airstrike, but officials have said they believe Sudan is a transit point for arms bound for Gaza.

Israel's defense minister, Ehud Barak, ordered the army to respond quickly to the attack on the school bus and said he held the Hamas militant group, which rules Gaza, responsible for the violence.

"We will respond until it will become clear that the Hamas fully understand that we cannot accept and we will not accept such events," he said at a military base in southern Israel.

A small militant faction, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, claimed responsibility for attacking the bus.

Israeli defense officials said the incident marked a significant moment that would warrant a severe response. But there were no immediate indications that the violence would devolve into all-out war.

Israeli medical services said the bus was nearly empty after dropping off school children and was carrying only the driver and a lone passenger at the time of the attack. Paramedics were trying to resuscitate a 16-year-old boy with a serious head wound at the scene. The driver was moderately wounded.

TV footage showed a yellow bus with its windows blown out and its rear charred.

Israeli President Shimon Peres condemned the attack from New York, where he was holding meetings at the United Nations.

"This is another example of Gaza becoming a terror state," he said in a statement. "Hundreds of thousands of mothers and children in southern Israel cannot sleep quietly at night as a result of the rocket fire from Gaza."

Israel usually responds with tough reprisals to Palestinian attacks. It launched an airstrike on a Hamas training facility in northern Gaza.

Later Thursday, Israeli aircraft and tanks attacked Hamas facilities in northern and central Gaza Strip. A tank shell also struck a fuel depot in northern Gaza, sending a plume of smoke above the area.

"Israel will not frighten us and will not terrorize us," said Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan. "We call on the Arab masses and the Arab revolution to stand by the Palestinian people in Gaza and to urge their regimes and their governments to stop this escalation, which aims to create a new pool of blood in Gaza Strip and Israel should be held responsible for the consequences of this."

The missile attack came hours after Israel carried out airstrikes against tunnels it says are used by militants to smuggle weapons under the Egyptian border and carry out attacks.

Hamas and other Gaza militants have fired thousands of projectiles toward southern Israel in previous years. Israel launched a massive offensive in late 2008 to counter the near-daily barrage.

Israel recently deployed its first system to defend its tanks from anti-tank missiles. As a result, Gaza militants may be turning the weapons on new targets, since the attack on the bus appears to be the first time such a missile has been fired at a civilian Israeli target.

Police said that within an hour of the initial missile attack about 15 mortar shells fired from Gaza landed in Israel, including one that directly struck a home, causing damage but no injuries.

In the West Bank, Israeli troops rounded up dozens of Palestinian women overnight in a massive sweep as part of a search for the killer of five Israelis in a nearby settlement last month.

Residents in Awarta said that between 100 and 200 women were taken into custody and that Israeli troops took their fingerprints and DNA samples from them. By midafternoon, all the women were believed to have been released.

Israel has been carrying out arrests in Awarta since a young Israeli couple and three of their children were stabbed to death as they slept in their home in the neighboring Jewish settlement of Itamar.

Sarit Michaeli of the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said Israel's mass roundup of women was unheard of. She said some 500 men from the village have also been arrested since the stabbing.

It was not known how many remain in custody. Israeli authorities have imposed a gag order on their investigation and had no comment.

With tensions escalating, Israeli authorities have issued a warning urging Israelis to avoid travel to Egypt's Sinai Peninsula - a popular destination during the upcoming Passover holiday. Israeli officials are concerned about growing lawlessness in the Sinai after the ouster of President Hosni Mubarak, and believe that Arab militants, both from al-Qaida and Hamas, are actively trying to kidnap Israelis. They fear that a captive Israeli could then be taken to the Hamas-ruled Gaza.


Normally potshots in that area aren't really postworthy, but this one is since it represents a change in tactics and an escalation. For those that don't now, antitank missiles are direct-fire guided weapons, not dumb rockets like Hamas and Hezbollah normally use for their attack. This means that, if the report that it was an ATGM is accurate, the bus was specifically targeted, not simply hit in a random attack.

Author:  darksiege [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

if the reports are correct, I hope that the Israeli retaliation is swift, decisive and complete.

Author:  Vladimirr [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ATGM hits civilian bus in Israel

So Israel uses tanks and missiles to attack Gaza, because Gaza fired anti-tank rockets into Israel, which they did because Israel ordered airstrikes against their tunnels, which they did because weapons were potentially being smuggled in, but they need the weapons to retaliate for .... ..... :roll:

Even if it was a guided missile, it's the same **** that's been going on forever, with slightly newer technology. Not sure why this is news anymore. Innocent lives are always lost, and everyone killed was always someone's son or brother or father. Why not just export all the civilians, have a knock-down drag-out nuclear war, let all the idiots blow themselves up, and scorch the earth so no one can live there anymore? Then the rest of the world can go on with life.

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ATGM hits civilian bus in Israel

Vladimirr wrote:
So Israel uses tanks and missiles to attack Gaza, because Gaza fired anti-tank rockets into Israel, which they did because Israel ordered airstrikes against their tunnels, which they did because weapons were potentially being smuggled in, but they need the weapons to retaliate for .... ..... :roll:

Even if it was a guided missile, it's the same **** that's been going on forever, with slightly newer technology. Not sure why this is news anymore. Innocent lives are always lost, and everyone killed was always someone's son or brother or father. Why not just export all the civilians, have a knock-down drag-out nuclear war, let all the idiots blow themselves up, and scorch the earth so no one can live there anymore? Then the rest of the world can go on with life.


This. I stopped caring about either side quite a while ago.

From my perspective we could completely stop any and all aid to both countries. That would probably help balance our budget to boot.

Author:  Rynar [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ATGM hits civilian bus in Israel

Aizle wrote:
Vladimirr wrote:
So Israel uses tanks and missiles to attack Gaza, because Gaza fired anti-tank rockets into Israel, which they did because Israel ordered airstrikes against their tunnels, which they did because weapons were potentially being smuggled in, but they need the weapons to retaliate for .... ..... :roll:

Even if it was a guided missile, it's the same **** that's been going on forever, with slightly newer technology. Not sure why this is news anymore. Innocent lives are always lost, and everyone killed was always someone's son or brother or father. Why not just export all the civilians, have a knock-down drag-out nuclear war, let all the idiots blow themselves up, and scorch the earth so no one can live there anymore? Then the rest of the world can go on with life.




This. I stopped caring about either side quite a while ago.

From my perspective we could completely stop any and all aid to both countries. That would probably help balance our budget to boot.


I agree 100%

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

If it were me in the White House, I'd state that all of our aid to both countries would come to a halt on Dec. 31st. Aid would be restored only at the point that a peace agreement had been both reached, but also upheld by both countries for a minimum of 6 months. Any break in such a peace agreement would result in an immediate drop of aid in the future.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

Interesting solution.

My prediction on what would happen next?

Hamas (from gaza and the west bank) immediately begin a massive shelling campaign against israel. Hezbollah does the same from Syria.

Israel realizes it's no longer dependant on US approval to get its few handouts, so utterly crushes Palestine, taking back all the land they have handed out over the last couple decades, revoking all concessions in giving israel away to those who have never historically owned it. (Remember, palestinians were not there long prior to Israel...they were forcibly implanted by the surrounding nations to counter the growing israeli population in the area.) Similarly, Israel would march into Syria by several miles, and establish a no-mans-land of neutral territory across their entire border, large enough that hezbolah could never make another even semi-accurate attack into israeli territory. Any syrians currently living in that area would be displaced and forced back into the rest of the country.

In the end, Israel would be far more secure, a whole lot richer, and a bunch of palestinians and syrians would have died for it.

Author:  Rynar [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Talya wrote:
Interesting solution.

My prediction on what would happen next?

Hamas (from gaza and the west bank) immediately begin a massive shelling campaign against israel. Hezbollah does the same from Syria.

Israel realizes it's no longer dependant on US approval to get its few handouts, so utterly crushes Palestine, taking back all the land they have handed out over the last couple decades, revoking all concessions in giving israel away to those who have never historically owned it. (Remember, palestinians were not there long prior to Israel...they were forcibly implanted by the surrounding nations to counter the growing israeli population in the area.) Similarly, Israel would march into Syria by several miles, and establish a no-mans-land of neutral territory across their entire border, large enough that hezbolah could never make another even semi-accurate attack into israeli territory. Any syrians currently living in that area would be displaced and forced back into the rest of the country.

In the end, Israel would be far more secure, a whole lot richer, and a bunch of palestinians and syrians would have died for it.


I would add a nuclear strike against Iran to that list, but otherwise, I'm in agreement.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Rynar wrote:
I would add a nuclear strike against Iran to that list, but otherwise, I'm in agreement.


Yeah. I'd suggest that, all things being equal, a nuclear strike against Mecca would be far more effective in helping to crush Islam. However, all things are not equal. Saudi Arabia is not a threat to Israel in any way, and in fact, have been suggesting they support Israel in recent years.

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

You stopped a little to early in your listing of outcomes.

Next, the muslim world, especially the radical portions, would turn their attentions away from the US, and focus their ire on Israel.

Although I thought Israel got a significant amount of support from the US, would they be financially able to be that aggressive?

Author:  Xequecal [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ATGM hits civilian bus in Israel

Israel does not need to use military force to crush the Palestinians. They live on massively overcrowded land that's mostly desert, just cut off the water and power, close the borders, and wait a month.

Author:  Vindicarre [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

Aizle,
Yes. We give Israel a couple billion a year, about 1% of their GDP.

We give the Palestinians about .5 billion in direct aid annually. That is by no means inclusive of other programs:

Congressional Research Service wrote:
Since 2007, the United States has appropriated or reprogrammed
nearly $2 billion in support of PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad’s security, governance,
development, and reform programs, including $650 million for direct budgetary assistance to the
PA and nearly $400 million in security and criminal justice sector assistance for the PA in the
West Bank


That's about 13 - 30% of their GDP.

X, I believe you're making reference to the Gaza Strip and ignoring the West Bank. In the case of the Gaza Strip, why wouldn't/shouldn't Egypt take care of those issues for them?

Author:  Xequecal [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

Gaza shares a border with Egypt, but it's still technically part of Israel. Israel can clamp down on the Egyptian border if they want, I highly doubt Egypt is going to shoot at them to get into Palestine.

Author:  RangerDave [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Talya wrote:
In the end, Israel would be far more secure, a whole lot richer, and a bunch of palestinians and syrians would have died for it.

If Israel actually did all those things you suggest, they would be completely cut off by the international community and slapped with sanctions up the arse. Their economy would crumble, not improve, and as a result, their security situation would steadily deteriorate as well. Moreover, any gain in buffer zone security would be dwarfed by the loss of security from all the extra terrorist attacks (and funding for such attacks) that would come raining down on them.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

RangerDave wrote:
Talya wrote:
In the end, Israel would be far more secure, a whole lot richer, and a bunch of palestinians and syrians would have died for it.

If Israel actually did all those things you suggest, they would be completely cut off by the international community and slapped with sanctions up the arse. Their economy would crumble, not improve, and as a result, their security situation would steadily deteriorate as well. Moreover, any gain in buffer zone security would be dwarfed by the loss of security from all the extra terrorist attacks (and funding for such attacks) that would come raining down on them.


You overestimate how long the international community would ***** about Israel doing what it is justified in doing and should have done two decades ago.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Talya wrote:
Interesting solution.

My prediction on what would happen next?

Hamas (from gaza and the west bank) immediately begin a massive shelling campaign against israel. Hezbollah does the same from Syria.

Israel realizes it's no longer dependant on US approval to get its few handouts, so utterly crushes Palestine, taking back all the land they have handed out over the last couple decades, revoking all concessions in giving israel away to those who have never historically owned it. (Remember, palestinians were not there long prior to Israel...they were forcibly implanted by the surrounding nations to counter the growing israeli population in the area.) Similarly, Israel would march into Syria by several miles, and establish a no-mans-land of neutral territory across their entire border, large enough that hezbolah could never make another even semi-accurate attack into israeli territory. Any syrians currently living in that area would be displaced and forced back into the rest of the country.

In the end, Israel would be far more secure, a whole lot richer, and a bunch of palestinians and syrians would have died for it.


The big problem with this scenario is the shelling campaign. The best either organization can do is fling a lot of mortar rounds and unguided rockets they can't aim very well. They don't have actual artillery.

Author:  Corolinth [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

The "international community" usually means Europe, and I think you vastly overestimate how much they care about brown people.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Corolinth wrote:
The "international community" usually means Europe, and I think you vastly overestimate how much they care about brown people.


They care a great deal about brown people when it lets them ***** at Israel or the U.S....

Author:  Vindicarre [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Xequecal wrote:
Gaza shares a border with Egypt, but it's still technically part of Israel. Israel can clamp down on the Egyptian border if they want, I highly doubt Egypt is going to shoot at them to get into Palestine.


Egypt controls the border between Gaza and Egypt. I guess if the Egyptians don't care enough about the Palestinians in Gaza to do anything about it, we know how highly their "Muslim brothers" rate.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Corolinth wrote:
The "international community" usually means Europe, and I think you vastly overestimate how much they care about brown people.

Are they overestimating how much Europe cares about brown people, or are you underestimating how much Europeans fear the hordes of brown people they've let immigrate into their own slums?

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:39 pm ]
Post subject: 

Maybe it was wire-guided and there was a hottie on the bus.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Elmarnieh wrote:
Maybe it was wire-guided and there was a hottie on the bus.


It was definitely wire-guided; I'm sure you're making a joke here but I'll be dogged if I get it.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Some wire guided stuff has a guide rod on the cheek so it tracks your point of vision. If there was a hot girl on the bus and the guy got distracted...

Guess that is kind of far to go for the joke...

Author:  Corolinth [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Are they overestimating how much Europe cares about brown people, or are you underestimating how much Europeans fear the hordes of brown people they've let immigrate into their own slums?
That's a nonissue. Israel's existence is already mortally offensive to them. Israel attacking Palestinians isn't going to piss off any Arab immigrants. Remember, the Arabs hate the Palestinians as much as the Jews. In their mind, the Israel/Palestine conflict is a win-win situation. **** up Syria might make some brown people mad, but they have other things to worry about, like whether Sharia Law is legal in France.

Author:  Rynar [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Corolinth wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Are they overestimating how much Europe cares about brown people, or are you underestimating how much Europeans fear the hordes of brown people they've let immigrate into their own slums?
That's a nonissue. Israel's existence is already mortally offensive to them. Israel attacking Palestinians isn't going to piss off any Arab immigrants. Remember, the Arabs hate the Palestinians as much as the Jews. In their mind, the Israel/Palestine conflict is a win-win situation. **** up Syria might make some brown people mad, but they have other things to worry about, like whether Sharia Law is legal in France.


But what does any of that have to do with abortion? :thumbs:

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