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Someone tell me why unions are good for the country again? https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6060 |
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Author: | Nitefox [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Someone tell me why unions are good for the country again? |
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/ ... r-does-it/ Seriously...we need to disband all unions. Just get rid of every single one of them. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Right, because when a corporation acts in a sociopathic manner to maximize shareholder profits, that's perfectly fine, but if a union does it, no that's awful and we need to get rid of them. |
Author: | darksiege [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Xeq, seriously? Their sign is one step away from Libel. They are bringing harm upon the hotel, and this is okay with you because it IS a union doing it? |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Shamelessly stolen from the Tick Update, because it's awesome. Spoilered for size. Spoiler: |
Author: | Rynar [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Xequecal wrote: Right, because when a corporation acts in a sociopathic manner to maximize shareholder profits, that's perfectly fine, but if a union does it, no that's awful and we need to get rid of them. Where are those shareholder profits held? Who owns them? |
Author: | Vindicarre [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Xequecal wrote: Right, because when a corporation acts in a sociopathic manner to maximize shareholder profits, that's perfectly fine, but if a union does it, no that's awful and we need to get rid of them. Someone tell me why the argument "But they do it..." is at all acceptable to a thinking being. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
darksiege wrote: Xeq, seriously? Their sign is one step away from Libel. They are bringing harm upon the hotel, and this is okay with you because it IS a union doing it? Libel? Really? There's a disclaimer right on the thing. Proclaiming something misleading then having a fine-print disclaimer is pretty much Advertising 101. Everyone does this. There's a gas station near here. Their convenience store sells a particular cup of coffee always for ten cents less than the price of gas. Then on the sign outside they have the price of this coffee displayed on the sign in giant digital letters with the fact that it's actually the price of a coffee, not gas, written under it in extremely tiny type that's a similar shade of green as the background of the sign. Given the current price of gas, I imagine virtually no one ever buys this coffee, nor do they expect anyone to. They do this so people will pull into their gas station instead of any of the others, then not want to go to a different gas station to save ten cents when they figure it out. I suppose the other gas stations should demand that all their competitors who use this tactic should be shut down? Maybe sue for false advertising? Please. Vindicarre wrote: Someone tell me why the argument "But they do it..." is at all acceptable to a thinking being. Hey, I'm not the one being the hypocrite here. I completely expect corporations to act like sociopaths. It never fails to amuse me how conservatives give corporate America a free pass on this while expecting unions to hold to the highest ethical standards, while liberals tend to do the exact opposite. |
Author: | Talya [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Right to free association and all that...I'm all for people being able to form unions. I'm completely against any special legal recognition or protection of them. |
Author: | LadyKate [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Xequecal wrote: Libel? Really? There's a disclaimer right on the thing. Proclaiming something misleading then having a fine-print disclaimer is pretty much Advertising 101. Everyone does this. XEQUECAL SUCKS DOWN WEINERS! DISCLAIMER: We are referring merely to the way he rapidly devours hot dogs |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Xequecal wrote: darksiege wrote: Xeq, seriously? Their sign is one step away from Libel. They are bringing harm upon the hotel, and this is okay with you because it IS a union doing it? Libel? Really? There's a disclaimer right on the thing. Proclaiming something misleading then having a fine-print disclaimer is pretty much Advertising 101. Everyone does this.e. Except, the disclaimer is about the *pictures* of the bedbugs. From the article: Quote: There were no customer complaints about sleeping with bedbugs. Therefore it is not simply "Advertising" and much closer to actual libel. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Xequecal wrote: Libel? Really? There's a disclaimer right on the thing. Proclaiming something misleading then having a fine-print disclaimer is pretty much Advertising 101. Everyone does this. There's a gas station near here. Their convenience store sells a particular cup of coffee always for ten cents less than the price of gas. Then on the sign outside they have the price of this coffee displayed on the sign in giant digital letters with the fact that it's actually the price of a coffee, not gas, written under it in extremely tiny type that's a similar shade of green as the background of the sign. Given the current price of gas, I imagine virtually no one ever buys this coffee, nor do they expect anyone to. They do this so people will pull into their gas station instead of any of the others, then not want to go to a different gas station to save ten cents when they figure it out. I suppose the other gas stations should demand that all their competitors who use this tactic should be shut down? Maybe sue for false advertising? Please. They probably should if the coffee price sign has an "unleaded" label. I'd be a lot less upset if the flyer's headline declared that the hotel had parasites, along with a picture of bedbugs, and then the print below it described the non-union contractors as blood-sucking parasites. But it doesn't. The headline says bedbugs, and the caption describes how you'll bring these parasites home to infest your house if you stay at the hotel. And then the fine print, which is half-obscured by the other sign below it, you'll note, has a disclaimer that can't even be seen at a "personal space bubble" viewing distance? Please. Not even comparable to your coffee price. |
Author: | Vindicarre [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Xequecal wrote: Vindicarre wrote: Someone tell me why the argument "But they do it..." is at all acceptable to a thinking being. Hey, I'm not the one being the hypocrite here. I completely expect corporations to act like sociopaths. It never fails to amuse me how conservatives give corporate America a free pass on this while expecting unions to hold to the highest ethical standards, while liberals tend to do the exact opposite. You'll have to do better than these mythical conservatives and liberals you always use for examples. There are regulations specifically targeting corporations that "act like sociopaths", there are laws specifically protecting unions even when they "act like sociopaths". Why is it always you who brings up something less than admirable "the other side" does as if it makes it ok for another entity to act similarly? What purpose does it serve? Weren't you ever taught that "two wrongs don't make a right"? Why do you think we haven't taken that to heart, even if you haven't? |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Müs wrote: Except, the disclaimer is about the *pictures* of the bedbugs. Therefore it is not simply "Advertising" and much closer to actual libel. The only part of that sign that could be considered libel is the first sentence. Even so, it only claims that some guests have complained about bedbugs, not all, and I'm reasonably certain they could come up with some guests that have complained about bedbugs if pressed to do so. The second paragraph makes no claims about the hotel, only factual claims about what bedbugs do. Then you have the fine-print third and fourth paragraphs that are the disclaimers. The fourth paragraph even says that they're not talking about actual bedbugs at the Hilton. Is it carefully framed to give a misleading picture about the Hilton? Of course, but seriously, do you watch any advertisements on TV ever? Like all those ads that have a Brand X that looks suspiciously similar to the product of their main competitor while they go on about how deficient and dangerous the Brand X product is? Especially bad are the medical ads which often suggest that the Brand X product has an ingredient that could kill you. And we'll not even go into the political ads that are often nothing but a creepy, deep-throated guy reading off a cavalcade of lies. Vindicarre wrote: You'll have to do better than these mythical conservatives and liberals you always use for examples. There are regulations specifically targeting corporations that "act like sociopaths", there are laws specifically protecting unions even when they "act like sociopaths". Why is it always you who brings up something less than admirable "the other side" does as if it makes it ok for another entity to act similarly? What purpose does it serve? Weren't you ever taught that "two wrongs don't make a right"? Why do you think we haven't taken that to heart, even if you haven't? http://www.revival.com/supernatural-debt-elimination.2681.1.htm Here's an ad I've seen on TV before. It's infinitely worse than what this union is doing, yet he can still get away with it. Whatever "regulations" exist, there are infinite examples of advertisements that are as bad or worse than this union bullshit and nothing gets done about them either. It's not about "right" and "wrong," it's about a level playing field. Yes it is "wrong" on some level for the union to do this, but they would be stupid if they did not use the same tools available to them as everyone else. I mean, we have entire classes of corporations now deemed "to big to fail" that can do literally whatever they want and be guaranteed profits or a bailout. No union has anywhere near that kind of political protection. And yes, this is also very "wrong," but being "right" doesn't mean much if you're run out of business. |
Author: | Vindicarre [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Sorry, I'm not going to sit through 25+ minutes of an Evangelist searching for your point. Care to give it to us? Vindicarre wrote: Why is it always you who brings up something less than admirable "the other side" does as if it makes it ok for another entity to act similarly? What purpose does it serve? Weren't you ever taught that "two wrongs don't make a right"? Why do you think we haven't taken that to heart, even if you haven't?
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Author: | Lex Luthor [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Unions are stupid. People should be working instead of all this crap. Also people should be fined after going on strike, or maybe have to pay more in taxes. |
Author: | Rynar [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Rynar wrote: Xequecal wrote: Right, because when a corporation acts in a sociopathic manner to maximize shareholder profits, that's perfectly fine, but if a union does it, no that's awful and we need to get rid of them. Where are those shareholder profits held? Who owns them? I ask again. |
Author: | darksiege [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Where on there does it state that the Hotel does not have bed bugs? Does it show it here? Dictionary.com wrote: a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures. b. the act or crime of publishing it. c. a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge. 2. anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents. And even though this is not considered a valid source; these guys expound on the concept of libel. Wiki wrote: Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1] In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false,[2][not specific enough to verify] and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.[3] Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with] libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy."[4][not verified in body] False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."[5] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light might have occurred.[5] In most civil law jurisdictions, defamation is dealt with as a crime rather than a tort.[6] A person who destroys another's reputation may be referred to as a famacide, defamer, or slanderer. The Latin phrase famosus libellus means a libelous writing. And this cannot reasonably be protected under the defense of libel for Fair comment on a matter of public interest |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Vindicarre wrote: Sorry, I'm not going to sit through 25+ minutes of an Evangelist searching for your point. Care to give it to us? Why is it always you who brings up something less than admirable "the other side" does as if it makes it ok for another entity to act similarly? What purpose does it serve? Weren't you ever taught that "two wrongs don't make a right"? Why do you think we haven't taken that to heart, even if you haven't? He promises that if you bring your bills to him and pay him a fee, he'll intervene with God on your behalf to magically make all your debt go away. I felt it was pretty similar to the many terrible unions in the country that take their members' money and give them nothing in return or even make their situation worse in return. And of course it's morally wrong. That's obvious. What the union does is morally wrong too. That's not the point, that's the whole reason I referred to unions and corporations as sociopaths. They have no morals. The hypocrisy comes when you expect unions to have morals but not corporations, or vice versa. Right and wrong don't mean anything, what matters is what they are allowed to get away with and what they aren't. When someone proposes to punish or "shut down" an entity for doing something that is common practice, it's ridiculous. You're focusing on them because you don't like what they're offering. |
Author: | Lex Luthor [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Xequecal wrote: Right, because when a corporation acts in a sociopathic manner to maximize shareholder profits, that's perfectly fine, but if a union does it, no that's awful and we need to get rid of them. Do you realize that unions are a drain on the economy in general? It hurts everyone. Everything you own and use was made by a corporation that was "maximizing profits". If you don't like it, move to somewhere not affected by corporations, like the middle of the Amazon rainforest. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
darksiege wrote: Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1] In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false,[2][not specific enough to verify] and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.[3] Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with] libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy."[4][not verified in body] False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."[5] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light might have occurred.[5] In most civil law jurisdictions, defamation is dealt with as a crime rather than a tort.[6] A person who destroys another's reputation may be referred to as a famacide, defamer, or slanderer. The Latin phrase famosus libellus means a libelous writing. None of the claims made are false. Some people have complained, the second paragraph is an accurate description of how bed bugs operate, and the third and fourth paragraph disclaimers are obviously also true. Only the first paragraph is not obviously true, but like I said, it would be easy to find some people that have complained about bedbugs to validate it. The fourth paragraph does not expressly say that the Hilton has no bedbugs, only that the pictures shown do not come from the Hilton, but the poster never actually claims the Hilton has bedbugs in the first place. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Rynar wrote: Where are those shareholder profits held? Who owns them?I ask again. Uh, the shareholders get the profits, usually in the form of dividends. I'm not sure what your point is. |
Author: | Rynar [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Xequecal wrote: Rynar wrote: Where are those shareholder profits held? Who owns them?I ask again. Uh, the shareholders get the profits, usually in the form of dividends. I'm not sure what your point is. Some shares pay dividends, not all. Most investment portfolios don't generate current income. But more importantly, who are these mythical shareholders you speak of? |
Author: | Lex Luthor [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Figure 2a: Wealth distribution by type of asset, 2007: investment assets Figure 2b: Wealth distribution by type of asset, 2007: other assets |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Rynar wrote: Some shares pay dividends, not all. Most investment portfolios don't generate current income. But more importantly, who are these mythical shareholders you speak of? You're going to have to tell me what your point is. The people who own shares of the company expect the company to make as much profit as possible by any means necessary, because they enrich themselves when the company does so. |
Author: | Rynar [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Someone tell me why unions are good for the country agai |
Xequecal wrote: Rynar wrote: Some shares pay dividends, not all. Most investment portfolios don't generate current income. But more importantly, who are these mythical shareholders you speak of? You're going to have to tell me what your point is. The people who own shares of the company expect the company to make as much profit as possible by any means necessary, because they enrich themselves when the company does so. /facepalm Not "what" is a shareholder, "who" are these shareholders. What sorts of investment vehicles are the shares in, and who owns them? |
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