The Glade 4.0 :: View topic - Big brother is watching

"Through my work with various law enforcement agencies, we've used h-cells.plist on devices older than iOS 4 to harvest geolocational evidence from iOS devices."

This is further compounded by the fact that such information does have perfectly legitimate uses within the telecomm industry.

Corolinth wrote:

This is further compounded by the fact that such information does have perfectly legitimate uses within the telecomm industry.

I don't think this really changes anything. Just because the information is useful doesn't mean the telcom industry is entitled to generate it or access it.

With an android device you can opt out of location based services. I believe you can do the same on Apple, which basically disables a lot of the functionality your GPS provides.

Apple Inc.'s iPhone is collecting and storing location information even when location services are turned off, according to a test conducted by The Wall Street Journal.
The location data appear to be collected using cellphone towers and Wi-Fi access points near a user's phone and don't appear to be transmitted back to Apple. Apple didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

On the otherhand, if they are creating it as a revenue source (advertising, etc...) or for some other more insidious reason, I would be a little unhappy with them about it for not being more open, and allowing me to disable it.

The "government" can access anything about your mobile phone usage, including tracking and listening to calls, tracking your location, reading your text messages and emails, and monitoring your network access.

The difference is (in theory) that they need a judges order to do it.

The fact that the database exists means that a law enforcement agency *could* access it as part of an investigation.

What isn't understood, and Apple isn't really talking about, is why the database exists in the first place, and what, if anything Apple (or your network provider) is doing with it (or can do with it) based on your Terms of Service.

If you read some of the articles, it doesn't appear a warrant is required for location information.

The data that is exposed basically reveals which city you were in at a given time. Nothing more specific than that. It can’t tell what house you live in, it can’t tell what route you jog on, nothing like that. It’s misleading because people know their phone can locate them within several meters of their actual location. But if all it’s showing is cell tower location, you could be anywhere within a 2 to 3 mile radius. That’s several orders of magnitude less precise.

http://www.willclarke.net/?p=247

Quote:

This writer is probably basing his assumption on the graphical representations created by pete warden's github tool that you see on many websites reporting on the issue.

Hopwin wrote:

If you read some of the articles, it doesn't appear a warrant is required for location information.

I'm not sure about Apple/IOS, but 'Location Based Services' are opt-in only on Android . This feature is necessary to use a location based app, such as 'Places', etc... I'm pretty sure this is also dependent on your GPS being active, but this could vary from device to device.

I should note that the Location Database the media is all up in arms about is not part of "Location Services" (despite the similar name). That database tracks your location regardless of GPS state, your "Location Services" opt-in status, or even whether or not your phone is powered off (it logs as long as the battery in installed).

E911 location data is made available to 911 service operators as mandated by federal law. This is tower triangulation data, and is necessary for obvious reasons. To my knowledge this data is not logged locally on the handset at all (at least not as part of the E911 set).

Again, there is no good reason for that database to exist without the owners knowledge and consent.

NinjaEdit: added some clarifications

To be clear Hopwin, the E911 data I'm referring to is exactly the same data as that in the database, but the E911 specification does not involve saving it into a database on your device, nor saving it on your PC. E911 primarily exists on the network side, and is used in emergencies to locate a device in real-time. There is no history involved.

My assertion is, there is no reason (related to E911 or otherwise) to create that database, or to save it to your PC).

Author:	Uncle Fester [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Big brother is watching
Apple not the government... http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/137432/ ... on-you.htm

Author:	Taskiss [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:
I think you'd be better off identifying who ISN'T watching, and I believe you'll find that list much shorter than you'd imagine. I don't know of anyone capable of knowing my location not doing so in some form or another.

Author:	Uncle Fester [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:
I wonder if my GPS system can find me, only use it on long drives where I don't know where I am going. My cell is so old it probably has no tracking capacity. I just might be safe...

Author:	Hopwin [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Big brother is watching
Uncle Fester wrote: Apple not the government... http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/137432/ ... on-you.htm Oh no, Big Brother is watching too. They've been quietly downloading this information from phones since before the iPhone 3G. http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ ... 195911.htm Quote: "Through my work with various law enforcement agencies, we've used h-cells.plist on devices older than iOS 4 to harvest geolocational evidence from iOS devices."

Author:	Midgen [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:
The "government" can access anything about your mobile phone usage, including tracking and listening to calls, tracking your location, reading your text messages and emails, and monitoring your network access. The difference is (in theory) that they need a judges order to do it. The fact that the database exists means that a law enforcement agency could access it as part of an investigation. What isn't understood, and Apple isn't really talking about, is why the database exists in the first place, and what, if anything Apple (or your network provider) is doing with it (or can do with it) based on your Terms of Service.

The Glade 4.0 https://gladerebooted.net/

Big brother is watching https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6089	Page 1 of 3

Author:	Corolinth [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:
This is further compounded by the fact that such information does have perfectly legitimate uses within the telecomm industry.

Author:	Midgen [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Corolinth wrote: This is further compounded by the fact that such information does have perfectly legitimate uses within the telecomm industry. I don't think this really changes anything. Just because the information is useful doesn't mean the telcom industry is entitled to generate it or access it. With an android device you can opt out of location based services. I believe you can do the same on Apple, which basically disables a lot of the functionality your GPS provides. What is controversial about this database to me is that there is apparently no way to opt out of the thing, and it's really not clear at all why the data exists in the first place. It bases your location on data from the 3G network access points, not your GPS, so you can't really disable it as long as your phone is on and working. If Apple is creating this as a data source for applications to help you in finidng your favorite restaurant, or cheap gas, thats great, let me decide if i want that feature or not, and allow me to disable it. On the otherhand, if they are creating it as a revenue source (advertising, etc...) or for some other more insidious reason, I would be a little unhappy with them about it for not being more open, and allowing me to disable it.

Author:	Lex Luthor [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:
I honestly don't see what the huge deal is. They can probably make good use of this information. It'll be really cool for people to log into their computers and accurately know where they are from IP address alone. Sure, they should've gotten permission, but it's really not a huge deal.

Author:	Vindicarre [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Midgen wrote: Corolinth wrote: This is further compounded by the fact that such information does have perfectly legitimate uses within the telecomm industry. I don't think this really changes anything. Just because the information is useful doesn't mean the telcom industry is entitled to generate it or access it. With an android device you can opt out of location based services. I believe you can do the same on Apple, which basically disables a lot of the functionality your GPS provides. IPhone Stored Location in Test Even if Disabled Quote: Apple Inc.'s iPhone is collecting and storing location information even when location services are turned off, according to a test conducted by The Wall Street Journal. The location data appear to be collected using cellphone towers and Wi-Fi access points near a user's phone and don't appear to be transmitted back to Apple. Apple didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

Author:	Corolinth [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Midgen wrote: On the otherhand, if they are creating it as a revenue source (advertising, etc...) or for some other more insidious reason, I would be a little unhappy with them about it for not being more open, and allowing me to disable it. Which, let's face it, is probably exactly the reason the database exists. I'm just pointing out that the data itself is important to several companies for legitimate reasons. Your cell phone carrier, for example, needs to know where you're likely to be using their service. It is entirely possible that Apple is contemplating cutting out the middle-man for the iPhone, erecting their own towers, and spinning off their own carrier service.

Author:	Lex Luthor [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:
They can already triangulate you from their towers. If you don't want to be tracked, turn off your phone and take out the battery. And put on your tin foil hat. Then nobody will "get you".

Author:	Corolinth [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:
http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/

Author:	Hopwin [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Midgen wrote: The "government" can access anything about your mobile phone usage, including tracking and listening to calls, tracking your location, reading your text messages and emails, and monitoring your network access. The difference is (in theory) that they need a judges order to do it. The fact that the database exists means that a law enforcement agency could access it as part of an investigation. What isn't understood, and Apple isn't really talking about, is why the database exists in the first place, and what, if anything Apple (or your network provider) is doing with it (or can do with it) based on your Terms of Service. If you read some of the articles, it doesn't appear a warrant is required for location information.

Author:	darksiege [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:
911 services from a cellular device, parental tracking, local vs. Long distance calling, being able to capture the audio if a subpoena is issues, being able to troubleshoot call quality issues, hell even fraudulent calling can (and the detection of said calling) all rely on the location of the device. The x factors for why a device could be collecting data is a large list. Does Apple use it for any of those reasons? /shrug I do not know, maybe. But there are valid reasons for a device to collect that information even if the user "opts out".

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Author:	Lex Luthor [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:
What's the worst thing that could happen, an Apple employee finds out you went to the Supermarket? It's just your general location, it's not like you're being video taped.

Author:	Midgen [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:
Hopwin wrote: If you read some of the articles, it doesn't appear a warrant is required for location information. I'm not sure about Apple/IOS, but 'Location Based Services' are opt-in only on Android . This feature is necessary to use a location based app, such as 'Places', etc... I'm pretty sure this is also dependent on your GPS being active, but this could vary from device to device. I should note that the Location Database the media is all up in arms about is not part of "Location Services" (despite the similar name). That database tracks your location regardless of GPS state, your "Location Services" opt-in status, or even whether or not your phone is powered off (it logs as long as the battery in installed). E911 location data is made available to 911 service operators as mandated by federal law. This is tower triangulation data, and is necessary for obvious reasons. To my knowledge this data is not logged locally on the handset at all (at least not as part of the E911 set). Again, there is no good reason for that database to exist without the owners knowledge and consent. NinjaEdit: added some clarifications

Author:	Micheal [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:
I've been told that living off the grid makes you easier to track, as the data limits where you might be. Instead, live so on the grid with multiple devices reporting your whereabouts constantly and continually, some falsely so, and they may have a general idea where you've been, but catching up with you is going to be hard.

Author:	Corolinth [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:
The more I think about it, the more the Apple ISP idea sounds plausible. The database is preliminary market research into whether their iPhone contract with AT&T is facilitating or hindering profits. AT&T no longer offers the unlimited data plans, which could have a negative impact on Apple's sales. Google, which has a competing piece of hardware on the market, has been rumored to be working on their own ISP. Apple doesn't want to be at a disadvantage. Therefore, they want information on how much it would cost, and so they can make projections for their return on investment.

Author:	Taskiss [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:
http://www.willclarke.net/?p=247 Quote: The data that is exposed basically reveals which city you were in at a given time. Nothing more specific than that. It can’t tell what house you live in, it can’t tell what route you jog on, nothing like that. It’s misleading because people know their phone can locate them within several meters of their actual location. But if all it’s showing is cell tower location, you could be anywhere within a 2 to 3 mile radius. That’s several orders of magnitude less precise.

Author:	Midgen [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Taskiss wrote: http://www.willclarke.net/?p=247 Quote: The data that is exposed basically reveals which city you were in at a given time. Nothing more specific than that. It can’t tell what house you live in, it can’t tell what route you jog on, nothing like that. It’s misleading because people know their phone can locate them within several meters of their actual location. But if all it’s showing is cell tower location, you could be anywhere within a 2 to 3 mile radius. That’s several orders of magnitude less precise. This is not true. The location data is MUCH more accurate than he states. How accurate depends on your proximity to, and the density of the towers your device triangulates with. In a densely populated city it's going to be accurate within a few feet. In rural areas it will vary depending on movement, tower proximity, etc.. This writer is probably basing his assumption on the graphical representations created by pete warden's github tool that you see on many websites reporting on the issue. Edit: Something useful http://tomstokes.wordpress.com/2011/04/ ... ation-log/ Another edit: If you want to create your own map image using your (unencrypted) consolidate.db, here you go. http://petewarden.github.com/iPhoneTracker/

Author:	Stathol [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Midgen wrote: This writer is probably basing his assumption on the graphical representations created by pete warden's github tool that you see on many websites reporting on the issue. Uh, I think some wires got crossed. The tool is apparently called "iPhone Tracker". Github is just the code hosting service he's using to host the git repository for his source code.

Author:	Midgen [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:
Probably mine. I was doing some quick searching trying to find the origin of those images. I posted the first link I came across without really looking into it (I was pretty busy at work today).

Author:	Hopwin [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
Midgen wrote: Hopwin wrote: If you read some of the articles, it doesn't appear a warrant is required for location information. I'm not sure about Apple/IOS, but 'Location Based Services' are opt-in only on Android . This feature is necessary to use a location based app, such as 'Places', etc... I'm pretty sure this is also dependent on your GPS being active, but this could vary from device to device. I should note that the Location Database the media is all up in arms about is not part of "Location Services" (despite the similar name). That database tracks your location regardless of GPS state, your "Location Services" opt-in status, or even whether or not your phone is powered off (it logs as long as the battery in installed). E911 location data is made available to 911 service operators as mandated by federal law. This is tower triangulation data, and is necessary for obvious reasons. To my knowledge this data is not logged locally on the handset at all (at least not as part of the E911 set). Again, there is no good reason for that database to exist without the owners knowledge and consent. NinjaEdit: added some clarifications Common misconception, the data they are talking about is a triangulation of the cell towers your phone is picking up. (Your E911 above).

Author:	Midgen [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:17 am ]
Post subject:
To be clear Hopwin, the E911 data I'm referring to is exactly the same data as that in the database, but the E911 specification does not involve saving it into a database on your device, nor saving it on your PC. E911 primarily exists on the network side, and is used in emergencies to locate a device in real-time. There is no history involved. My assertion is, there is no reason (related to E911 or otherwise) to create that database, or to save it to your PC).

Author:	Hopwin [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
Midgen wrote: To be clear Hopwin, the E911 data I'm referring to is exactly the same data as that in the database, but the E911 specification does not involve saving it into a database on your device, nor saving it on your PC. E911 primarily exists on the network side, and is used in emergencies to locate a device in real-time. There is no history involved. My assertion is, there is no reason (related to E911 or otherwise) to create that database, or to save it to your PC). I just meant the data that is stored on your same is the same as the E911. I agree with you mostly, the only legitimate use I would accept is if this data on your phone allowed you to access towers more quickly which used to be a bigger problem in the past when coverage was spottier and your phone had to download a list of towers. Nowadays that is a moot point for I would estimate 85-95% of the continental US.