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Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
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Author:  Xequecal [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
I'm going to put this here because I figure people probably have strong opinions about this. Anyways, I've lived in the US for more than long enough to qualify for citizenship, but have never been able to get it because it would require sacrificing my German citizenship and EU membership. As you probably know, when you naturalize you have to renounce all other citizenships. Well, now there's a potential way around that. As a mere permanent resident, I face substantial job discrimination. I cannot get government jobs, and many private employers also only hire citizens. Well, I've learned that it's the position of the German government that this discrimination constitutes duress to renounce my German citizenship. So all I have to do is fill out an application, and the German government will then dismiss my renunciation of German citizenship as invalid, as it was made under duress. I can say and sign all the things I need to naturalize and retain my German citizenship. I've consulted with an immigration lawyer and she told me that the odds of this turning around on me are pretty much nil, thousands of people do it every year and the State Department does not care, and even if they did the burden of proof would be on them to prove that I became a citizen in bad faith, something that's not even clear. (If the German government accepts that you're under duress, that's pretty authoritative and credible)

Of course, the duress argument is pretty dubious, and if I were to do this I'd end up having to swear several oaths that I know well in advance are totally meaningless.
Author:  darksiege [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you are knowingly doing it in bad faith, that is kind of **** up. Using a loophole in the law is not cool.

But this is far from me saying NO DON'T DO IT. It does not matter to me either way.
Author:  Lenas [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
You should do it. Period. The fact that we've created imaginary lines shouldn't mean anything to you when considering the quality of your own life. Take advantage of any law loophole you can; it's not your fault people couldn't plug the holes in the first place.
Author:  Shelgeyr [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
FWIW - I think the US requirement to "renounce all other citizenships" is harsh and unnecessary, and I consider the practice of hiring "citizens only, no permanent residents" is discriminatory, so I'm unable to find it within me to think less of you or anyone else who might choose to hold a partially unrecognized dual citizenship in the manner you describe.
Author:  Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
Do what's best for you personally. I, frankly, do not want non-citizens taking government jobs and have no problem with private companies doing as they please. I also really don't give a **** what the German government does. I'd say their position on "duress" is silly, but whatever. Just don't go bellyaching if you do happen to be that one guy that gets in trouble.

As for EU.. **** that ****. You should be thrilled to be ditching EU citizenship.
Author:  FarSky [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
Xequecal wrote:
(If the German government accepts that you're under duress, that's pretty authoritative and credible)

Heheheheh...I'm sorry, that makes me giggle. Childish, but...yeah.

I don't see a reason not to do it, though I don't really understand the appeal of dual-citizenship (had a close friend in college who did the same, became a US citizen while loopholing out of renouncing her British citizenship. My thought would be that if you want to be a citizen of another country, be a citizen of another country. It feels kinda like cheating otherwise.

That said, I pretty much just agree with Lenas.
Author:  Xequecal [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
FarSky wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
(If the German government accepts that you're under duress, that's pretty authoritative and credible)

Heheheheh...I'm sorry, that makes me giggle. Childish, but...yeah.

I don't see a reason not to do it, though I don't really understand the appeal of dual-citizenship (had a close friend in college who did the same, became a US citizen while loopholing out of renouncing her British citizenship. My thought would be that if you want to be a citizen of another country, be a citizen of another country. It feels kinda like cheating otherwise.

That said, I pretty much just agree with Lenas.


EU citizenship lets me live and work anywhere in the EU if I want. That's a pretty big advantage.
Author:  Rynar [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Lenas wrote:
You should do it. Period. The fact that we've created imaginary lines shouldn't mean anything to you when considering the quality of your own life. Take advantage of any law loophole you can; it's not your fault people couldn't plug the holes in the first place.


This 100%.
Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't care whether you do or not. That's your decision, and I don't have any input on it except this:

To apply for and attain citizenship while planning to claim it was under duress pretty well cheapens the citizenship of my country, and the oaths and whatnot that we require you to swear. I don't personally look kindly upon that, and I don't think I'd be alone.

If you want to be a US citizen, part of what we have, as a society, decided is that you're ours, and not splitting loyalty. If that's where you are coming from, then welcome to our (as-yet) great nation of liberty and opportunity.

If your first act as a US citizen is one of duplicity and betrayal, as it were, then I find it hard to encourage you to join us.

Beyond that, from an objective standpoint, your conscience will and should be your guide. If something like what I've just said resonates with you, then no, you shouldn't. If you can live with not only your own conscience's acceptance of the above, but other people's opinions on what you did, then that's what you'll do.

I question the immigration lawyer's advice, though -- if we decided to crack down on immigration, and look at recent naturalizations to find such things -- I'd say the burden of proof is met; if I were on a jury or a judge's bench hearing such a matter, I'd say that so long as you're claiming to have taken the oath in good faith and then turned around (at any point) and told the German government that you renounced your German citizenship under duress, you're lying to either the Germans or the US. As such, I'd have no problem saying "I can't tell which of us you're lying to, but I'm gonna make you choose."

I'd also imagine that the same people who discriminate against you as a permanent resident might also find excuses to do so if they found out you put "yes, I'm a citizen" on, say, a job application, but then claimed to Germany you were under duress to get your German citizenship back.

If it were me, I'd choose one. Out of curiosity, though, and if you don't mind sharing, what makes you hesitant about renouncing your German citizenship? I think more information there might enable better advice from us, beyond our moral reaction to the "loophole."
Author:  Xequecal [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
If it were me, I'd choose one. Out of curiosity, though, and if you don't mind sharing, what makes you hesitant about renouncing your German citizenship? I think more information there might enable better advice from us, beyond our moral reaction to the "loophole."


It's another place I can try to get work if the bottom completely falls out here. I don't currently have a lot of job security. Being bilingual in German and English is worth a lot more in Germany than it is here, so that would be a large bonus.
Author:  Lenas [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
I wouldn't want to give up the ability to work/live in almost any first world country, either.
Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's up to you. Just accept the responsibility for what will occur if you get busted, and if that's acceptable to you, then have at it.
Author:  Lydiaa [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
There are huge advantages to having a citizenship within the EU, for a starters, you don't have to get a VISA when visiting heaps of countries... You just land, get a stamp and off you go. You are also almost 'given' (really easy to apply, quick approval) a temporary working visa when in those countries (with limitations). So when you're young and have the aspirations to visit the world, an EU passport is like a back packer's wet dream.

While the US is appealing (at least to me) during my working age, it is not on the list of countries where I would want to raise my kids or retire… and seriously guys, you guys need to import better coffee =P
Author:  Xequecal [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think it's highly unlikely that anything bad will happen to me over it. Even if I remain in the US, I'd also like to head off any potential work-related nightmares in my future (probably distant future, but you never know) from not being a citizen, like my dad experienced. He's the President of a German manufacturing corporation's US operations. He had a huge business deal with Raytheon where he was going to sell them a bunch of precision aluminum machining equipment. It was all going great until he found out that Raytheon does not allow noncitizens to even enter the property for "security reasons," (lol) even if they're buying a product from them. So he had to specifically hire someone simply for the purpose of going down there and taking all the measurements and signing all the paperwork. Of course this person didn't have any specific experience with German-made stuff, so it was an amazingly epic nightmare of dawn-to-dusk work for weeks to get the deal finalized.
Author:  Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
Because clearly, a major defense contractor cannot possibly have any legitimate security concerns. :roll:
Author:  Wwen [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
The huge disadvantage is that you'll have to gain weight, become dumber and be very rude and act like the world owes you a big favor for existing. I don't know if you have what it takes, Xeq
Author:  Xequecal [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, I could stand to gain some weight. I'm currently 6'1" and weigh 160 pounds soaking wet.
Author:  Lenas [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
Lydiaa wrote:
While the US is appealing (at least to me) during my working age, it is not on the list of countries where I would want to raise my kids or retire…

Care to elaborate?
Author:  Lydiaa [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your corporate world has a faster pace and a high turn over, making moving up the ladder faster. US work experience is also highly valued world wide, probably on par if not more than the UK, however you guys have a much lower living standard than the UK and is much easier to save up. (food in the US is seriously cheap compared with your income).

For raising kids and retiring however, I don’t like the US general culture over all. Things such as entitlement, consumerism, excess, healthcare, primary and secondary level education, over all level of violence, discrimination (including reverse discrimination) and the general American population are just more high strung and paranoid than what I’m comfortable with.

Plus the whole general direction of “rich people bad” doesn’t suit my retirement plan very well =P
Author:  Micheal [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Why do you want to become a citizen of the United States Xeq?

For most of our immigrants it has been

a) opportunity (homeland sucks for opportunity, go somewhere you can make your own life)
b) freedom from some kind of oppression, be it religious, ethnic, class, etc.
c) political asylum

All are good reasons and once here they get the opportunity to become a citizen. some do it because they never ever want to go back where they came from. Some do it for more opportunity. Some do it because they have come to appreciate life in the United States and have developed a great affection for the country that has let them earn that life.

So, why do you want to become a citizen. The pros must outweigh the cons. If they don't you'll regret your decision for the rest of your life, does Germany take back ex-citizens who have renounced them?
Author:  Taskiss [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
I couldn't make an oath I knew I didn't believe in.
Author:  shuyung [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think we can all take to heart the words of Marshall Mathers:
"Will Smith don't gotta cuss in his raps to sell his records;
Well I do, so **** him, and **** you, too."
Author:  Talya [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
Lenas wrote:
You should do it. Period. The fact that we've created imaginary lines shouldn't mean anything to you when considering the quality of your own life. Take advantage of any law loophole you can; it's not your fault people couldn't plug the holes in the first place.


This. I'm a citizen of planet earth. The people drawing lines on the maps should all have been shot before they had a chance to finish. Anything that tells me or anyone else where they can or cannot live and work is an afront to freedom anyway. I say get as many citizenships as you can.

Hey, aren't you a canadian citizen, too, Xeq?
Author:  Hannibal [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
It's up to you. Just accept the responsibility for what will occur if you get busted, and if that's acceptable to you, then have at it.


This.

I don't think you're having an ethical dilemma. I think you've already rationalized your decision. You just want to be assured your risk vs reward is at acceptable levels. That being said, if the risk is worth the reward, have at it.
Author:  Khross [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical Dilemma - Should I apply to be a US citizen?
Since you're intent on committing fraud if you do apply for U.S. Citizenship ...

Just leave now.
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