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Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6846 |
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Author: | RangerDave [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget |
Note that, in practice, this isn't actually a false dilemma. Sure, in theory we could lower spending to the point that it would be possible to balance the budget while keeping taxes low, but in practice, there's nowhere near enough public support to push through the level of spending cuts that a cuts-only approach would require. So, dealing with the world as it is, there's a tension between the twin conservative goals of lower taxes and balanced budgets. I'm curious which goal people here think should take priority. |
Author: | Wwen [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
You can't do both? |
Author: | Xequecal [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
The government's current tax revenue is the lowest it's ever been since WWII, less than 15% of GDP. Balancing the budget is 100% more important. IMHO, cutting taxes and not cutting spending is worse than increasing spending while leaving taxes the same. At least when you do the latter the money stays in the United States, when you do the former the extra money just gets hoarded (like the banks that aren't lending or the businesses making record profits but not hiring) or gets invested in East Asia. Oh yeah, and lowering taxes without cutting spending doesn't actually lower taxes. |
Author: | Corolinth [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
There's a false dilemma there, but have fun setting up your strawman for whoever is stupid enough to answer the poll. |
Author: | Hannibal [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget |
RangerDave wrote: Note that, in practice, this isn't actually a false dilemma. Sure, in theory we could lower spending to the point that it would be possible to balance the budget while keeping taxes low, but in practice, there's nowhere near enough public support to push through the level of spending cuts that a cuts-only approach would require. So, dealing with the world as it is, there's a tension between the twin conservative goals of lower taxes and balanced budgets. I'm curious which goal people here think should take priority. Youre not taking into account that the government is spending money on programs and items that it has no right to. Fund the actual responsibilities. Ensure the programs which the goverment truly should be managing are done correctly and solvent. There should be no surplus when it comes to taking peoples tax money. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
He's askign which is a priority, not saying "if you can only do one or the other, which do you do?" Something being a priority doesn't mean that's the only thing you do. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget |
RangerDave wrote: Note that, in practice, this isn't actually a false dilemma. Sure it is, they're not mutually exclusive unless you refuse to cut spending. It doesn't take public support, just determination on the part of the representatives. Sorta like Obamacare, but in reverse. |
Author: | RangerDave [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget |
Taskiss wrote: It doesn't take public support, just determination on the part of the representatives. Sorta like Obamacare, but in reverse. Obamacare was never as unpopular as major cuts to Social Security and Medicare (which is what would be required for an all-cuts approach). In fact, the more specific you got about what Obamacare involved, the more public support went up; whereas the more specific you get about cutting spending, the more public support goes down. Moreover, for all the philosophical objections one can raise to Obamacare, its direct impact on people's daily lives isn't nearly as significant as the direct impact that major cuts to SS and Medicare would have, meaning the political blowback to the latter would be much, much stronger. For the purposes of this thread, I'm not arguing whether that's good or bad; I'm just saying that's the way it is. It's wishful thinking to believe it's politically possible to get to balance through cuts alone; just as it's wishful thinking on the part of liberals to think we can get there through nothing but tax increases on the wealthy. Neither of those things will happen. So, given that reality (call it an assumption if you must), I'm just curious whether people here would prefer to compromise on taxes or deficits. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Obamacare was unpopular with the majority. After it reaches that point, HOW unpopular is irrelevant ... the representative won't get reelected anyway, as we saw in the last election. As far as what is and isn't possible, I suggest we stay tuned. I'm thinking we'll see some things considered impossible before it's over. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Diamondeye wrote: He's askign which is a priority, not saying "if you can only do one or the other, which do you do?" Something being a priority doesn't mean that's the only thing you do. Then he's asking the wrong question. "If you can only do one to balance the budget, which should be the priority: raise taxes, or cut spending?" |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Kaffis Mark V wrote: Diamondeye wrote: He's askign which is a priority, not saying "if you can only do one or the other, which do you do?" Something being a priority doesn't mean that's the only thing you do. Then he's asking the wrong question. "If you can only do one to balance the budget, which should be the priority: raise taxes, or cut spending?" Why is he asking the wrong question by asking which you prioritize? |
Author: | Corolinth [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget |
He is assuming that increasing taxes or maintaining their current level is the only way to balance the budget. He is assuming that spending can not be reduced. |
Author: | RangerDave [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget |
Corolinth wrote: He is assuming that increasing taxes or maintaining their current level is the only way to balance the budget. He is assuming that spending can not be reduced. Close - I'm assuming that spending cannot be reduced enough to balance the budget. We could get part of the way there, but not all the way (as evidenced by the debt ceiling fight); and given the political situation, I believe the gap will remain quite large for the foreseeable future. So, on that basis, I'm wondering whether Gladers' preference would be to refuse tax increases and live with the deficit or to close the gap and live with tax increases. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
He's also comparing an end to a means. Well, I suppose, for some liberals, increasing taxes IS an end... |
Author: | Vindicarre [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Xequecal wrote: The government's current tax revenue is the lowest it's ever been since WWII, less than 15% of GDP. If you want to use GDP as the benchmark: In 1949 the tax revenue was a lower percentage of GDP, and the Federal Government ran a surplus. In 1950 it was even lower, and the Gov't only ran a deficit 1.1% of GDP. In 2009 government spending was the highest it's ever been (as a percentage of GDP). In 2010 government spending was the highest it's ever been except for 1946 (as a percentage of GDP). In 2009 the Gov't ran a deficit that was 10% of GDP. In 2010 the Gov't ran a deficit that was 8.9% of GDP. |
Author: | RangerDave [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
How so, Kaffis? Aren't lower taxes and balanced budgets both "ends" for conservatives? |
Author: | Xequecal [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Vindicarre wrote: Xequecal wrote: The government's current tax revenue is the lowest it's ever been since WWII, less than 15% of GDP. If you want to use GDP as the benchmark: In 1949 the tax revenue was a lower percentage of GDP, and the Federal Government ran a surplus. In 1950 it was even lower, and the Gov't only ran a deficit 1.1% of GDP. In 2009 government spending was the highest it's ever been (as a percentage of GDP). In 2010 government spending was the highest it's ever been except for 1946 (as a percentage of GDP). In 2009 the Gov't ran a deficit that was 10% of GDP. In 2010 the Gov't ran a deficit that was 8.9% of GDP. My point was not that spending isn't too high. Of course spending is far too high. My point was that taxes are not too high. Taxes are lower now than when Eisenhower was President, and he's the President widely considered to have the best fiscal policy of the 20th century. So the assertion that "taxes are way too high as it is, we have to fix the spending problem with cuts only" is just ridiculous. |
Author: | Midgen [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I would prioritize balancing the budget over any tax cuts at this point, but I'm in the camp that thinks this poll should be collecting disability compensation, because it's obviously afflicted with some disease... |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
RangerDave wrote: How so, Kaffis? Aren't lower taxes and balanced budgets both "ends" for conservatives? Lower taxes aren't an end. It's a means to two ends. A balanced budget with reduced spending is one. A healthy economy where the market gets to keep the bulk of the money earned in (pseudo-)rational actors rather than trusting a centralized economic overlord to **** things up and waste it. |
Author: | Talya [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Xequecal wrote: The government's current tax revenue is the lowest it's ever been since WWII, less than 15% of GDP. Okay...RD used that figure the other day, and I skewered it then, and I will do it again now. %age of GDP is a useless measure. How does tax revenue fair as an absolute figure? Go ahead, and even adjust it for inflation. How does it fair then? It may still be low right now, you're in a bit of economic trouble for the last few years, but still, "less than 15% of GDP" tells us NOTHING, since GDP is not an indicator that should have any bearing on government spending or the budget. Quote: Oh yeah, and lowering taxes without cutting spending doesn't actually lower taxes. Agreed, 100%. Cutting spending and balancing the budget (even paying off the debt) need to be your government's primary concern. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Talya wrote: Okay...RD used that figure the other day, and I skewered it then, and I will do it again now. %age of GDP is a useless measure. How does tax revenue fair as an absolute figure? Go ahead, and even adjust it for inflation. How does it fair then? It may still be low right now, you're in a bit of economic trouble for the last few years, but still, "less than 15% of GDP" tells us NOTHING, since GDP is not an indicator that should have any bearing on government spending or the budget. Percentage of GDP is a better measure than trying to adjust 1950s taxation for inflation, because nobody can even remotely agree on what the inflation rate has actually been. |
Author: | Talya [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Xequecal wrote: Percentage of GDP is a better measure than trying to adjust 1950s taxation for inflation, because nobody can even remotely agree on what the inflation rate has actually been. It's still utterly useless since there is no appropriate "percentage of GDP" that government should be collecting. If your GDP goes up 300%, but tax revenue as a percentage of GDP goes down 50%, you're still collecting 50% more tax than you were before. Just because one figure is too difficult to acquire, doesn't suddenly make another figure relevant. |
Author: | Lex Luthor [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_system_in_China Just for comparison's sake. |
Author: | Talya [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Lex Luthor wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_system_in_China Spoiler: Just for comparison's sake. lol...and they've taken "control of the means of production." |
Author: | Stathol [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lower Taxes vs Balanced Budget |
Here is the simple truth: The United States of America does not have, nor has it ever had, a revenue problem. |
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