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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:59 am 
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http://www.cnbc.com/id/44626413

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With no solution in sight for Europe and new fears of a global recession, investors dumped stocks and commodities and ran to the safety of U.S. Treasurys.

Treasury yields , as a result, slipped to historic lows with the 10-year yielding 1.75 percent and the 30-year at 2.86 percent.

The dollar was also a beneficiary of a massive fear trade that sent U.S. stocks sharply lower, on the heels of steep sell-offs in equities markets around the globe.

The worst performing stock market sectors mirrored the sell-off in global commodities markets, with materials down 4.6 percent and energy stocks down 4.1 percent.

Copper, hit by concerns of a Chinese slowdown, tumbled 7 percent to a 1-year low. Gold, usually a safety play, was sold into the maelstrom as investors raised cash. The euro [EUR=X 1.3486 -0.0091 (-0.67%) ], broke below 1.35, a recent bottom of its range. It was trading in the 1.346 area, an eight-month low against the dollar. The dollar index [.DXY 78.36 1.01 (+1.31%) ] was 1.4 percent higher.

"People are finding it really isn't gold. It isn't precious metals. It's not currencies. U.S. Treasurys are where people are flocking to at a time of extreme concern about risk, and we continue to see Treasurys continue to get bid up," said Zane Brown, fixed income strategist at Lord Abbett.


The selling in risk assets picked up momentum after the Fed's statement Wednesday, in which it characterized risks to the economy as "significant" and noted that "strains in global financial markets" (or Europe) could be a catalyst. Then overnight, a preliminary China manufacturing data showed moderating growth.

The Fed intends to swap $400 billion in shorter dated Treasurys for the same amount in the 6-year to 30-year range. For the most part, traders worry the "twist" will do little to help the struggling economy.

"The Fed will have to go on a publicity tour over the next few weeks, coming out and stating what is the metric by which they will judge this as a success or failure," said Kevin Ferry of Cronus Futures.

"The metrics we look at—the financial conditions index—it's worse today," Ferry said. Spreads on a whole range of credit market indicators widened, including investment grade corporates, emerging market sovereigns, high-yield corporates, and municipal bonds.

Brown said he does not see the U.S. falling into recession , as the markets fear.

"The combination of consumers spending what they can, durable goods improving just at the margin, exports improving just at the margin and what the Fed does to promote lending should help us avoid a recession," he said. Brown said the Fed may spur some increase in bank lending, driving some economic activity.

"The activity on the part of the Fed is really going to make it difficult for banks to make money unless they start lending. That's what the Fed hopes will happen. Their rationale for doing this is to promote risk taking," he said.

The lack of resolution on Europe , however, remains the biggest culprit as investors worry the exposure of European banks to the sovereign crisis will kick off a global banking crisis. The EU, IMF and European Central Bank put off until October to determine what will be done about the next payment to Greece, without which it will default. Markets have been disappointed with the lack of a bigger plan of action from European leaders.

"I think it's about the lack of leadership anywhere in the world. We're seriously distressed about the lack of leadership and constant squabbling in Washington," Brown said.

The animosity between political parties was once more in the headlines Thursday as the House defeated a spending billi that would keep the government running. Republican majority leader Rep. John Boehner said he expects the bill to pass and blamed Democrats.


Things aren't looking too good. I think the system is fundamentally flawed. And where's all the Hope and Change?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:27 pm 
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The hope and change is currently getting blown by the supporters

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:25 pm 
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I find it funny that a lot of people are still claiming >10% inflation when people are willing to buy Treasuries at 1.6%.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Ummm, because -8.4 is better than -10+...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Promote risk taking? Isn't that... but... Why...? Jesus F. Christ. End the GD Fed.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Khross was right.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:13 am 
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Why people would dump tangible assets for treasuries now is beyond me. I guess its the people who own the commodities on paper rather than on hand.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:06 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
Why people would dump tangible assets for treasuries now is beyond me. I guess its the people who own the commodities on paper rather than on hand.


They believe that if the world economy falters, demand for those tangible assets will drop as consumption drops, and since price is a function of supply vs. demand, the value of those tangible goods relative to the treasuries will drop.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:54 am 
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Talya wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Why people would dump tangible assets for treasuries now is beyond me. I guess its the people who own the commodities on paper rather than on hand.


They believe that if the world economy falters, demand for those tangible assets will drop as consumption drops, and since price is a function of supply vs. demand, the value of those tangible goods relative to the treasuries will drop.


I understand the concept. What I don't understand is how people to think it is a good idea to dive into treasury bills. If I have in my possession 12 ounces of gold I have 12 ounces of gold. If I have a treasury security it is only worth something as long as the country it's drawn on is solvent. Given the current administration penchant for spending beyond its means, ill take the tangible over a promise.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:14 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
I understand the concept. What I don't understand is how people to think it is a good idea to dive into treasury bills. If I have in my possession 12 ounces of gold I have 12 ounces of gold. If I have a treasury security it is only worth something as long as the country it's drawn on is solvent. Given the current administration penchant for spending beyond its means, ill take the tangible over a promise.


Gold rates up there with T-Bills for me. Assuming some sort of post-apocalyptic world, if I have a 5 lb bag of rice I am not trading it for your shiny metal. Guns, ammunition, foodstuffs, water purifiers, fuel, etc. I can understand. Hell even steel, iron, aluminum I get since I could at least make something out of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:30 am 
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It's been looking like there was a gold bubble for a while now. I rode it up a bit, and sold out a couple of weeks ago.

Right now, it's just sitting in savings with some other sold investments. I'm happy with it there for now.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:42 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
I understand the concept. What I don't understand is how people to think it is a good idea to dive into treasury bills. If I have in my possession 12 ounces of gold I have 12 ounces of gold. If I have a treasury security it is only worth something as long as the country it's drawn on is solvent. Given the current administration penchant for spending beyond its means, ill take the tangible over a promise.


Gold rates up there with T-Bills for me. Assuming some sort of post-apocalyptic world, if I have a 5 lb bag of rice I am not trading it for your shiny metal. Guns, ammunition, foodstuffs, water purifiers, fuel, etc. I can understand. Hell even steel, iron, aluminum I get since I could at least make something out of them.


It always amuses me that people always jump to "a post-apocalyptic world" when the subject of buying gold comes up.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:45 am 
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People are quite ready to jump to the assumption of societal meltdown for a lot of reasons.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:47 am 
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The price of gold will go far down in a post-apocalyptic world compared to the value of guns, gasoline, food, and unskilled labor. However, it would then rise steadily as civilisation is rebuilt, but not to former heights for a very long time.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
I understand the concept. What I don't understand is how people to think it is a good idea to dive into treasury bills. If I have in my possession 12 ounces of gold I have 12 ounces of gold. If I have a treasury security it is only worth something as long as the country it's drawn on is solvent. Given the current administration penchant for spending beyond its means, ill take the tangible over a promise.


Gold rates up there with T-Bills for me. Assuming some sort of post-apocalyptic world, if I have a 5 lb bag of rice I am not trading it for your shiny metal. Guns, ammunition, foodstuffs, water purifiers, fuel, etc. I can understand. Hell even steel, iron, aluminum I get since I could at least make something out of them.


It always amuses me that people always jump to "a post-apocalyptic world" when the subject of buying gold comes up.


Well what are your options? Gold is a hedge against cash no? So if the dollar collapses you won't cash it out for dollars I would assume, Euros (or any foreign currency) won't do you any good unless switched back to dollars. So unless you are trading ingots, grams, grains, etc of it straight up for goods what does it get you? (Honest question)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:34 pm 
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Once again, the premise you present goes directly to the most dire of situations - the collapse of the dollar. Some people buy gold for the (outlandish IMHO) ideas you relate gold buying to - global currency collapse, to be used as post-apocalyptic "currency"; those gold buyers are the extreme minority (again, IMHO). Gold is also, uncommonly, used as a place to "hold" their cash. It is viewed as intrinsically valuable, and is safer to hold if you're inclined to remove yourself from all the other investment markets - still a tiny minority of gold buyers.
The vast majority of gold buyers buy gold as an investment, plain and simple. Putting it in the most general terms possible, most investment vehicles benefit from a stable economic environment; gold has traditionally been seen as the opposite. When the markets are unstable/unpredictable, gold (other precious metals benefits more recently) prices rise. It's kind of self perpetuating, but it's been that way for a long, long, long time. That doesn't even touch on the possible reasons that people buy gold coins, which are various but also include all of the above.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Why does people having gold bother certain people? That's probably a better question. Just cause they think the people are being snookered? Or is it because of a lack of control?

Let's be honest here. Stocks, bonds, currency: They're just promises of a return on an investment. Any element (something that can't be created or doesn't rely on a promise) is going to have a value either based on rarity or usability. Gold doesn't have as much usability or steel or diamonds (though steel ingots and cut diamonds won't do me personally any good either), but it's also rare.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:00 am 
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For health reasons, I die shortly after the revolution/apocalypse and quite frankly, I'm okay with that. We all die sometime and I'd rather not live in a world where I have to kill my neighbors to survive.

I'm too civilized I guess. the post-times are fun to play on video games, but they would be hell to actually live through, especially with no guarantee of a better time on the horizon.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:17 am 
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Two things. A dollar collapse would not likely result in a Mad Max world - or at least not for very long. It would much more resemble in the US a place a bit better off than Kosovo was for the worst of it.

Gold still traded for goods there at that time.

The thing is one has gold to trade for unexpected things at that time - specific medical equipment - a smuggling favor - a bribe to a guard or some such. One also has it for the recovery period where the value increases once basics are covered and some sort of trade is required. An oz of gold for a horse, a car, or a mechanic who can fix your generator and the like.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Or being a repository of knowledge like me and able to fix a metric **** ton of things!!!!!!

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