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 Post subject: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:55 am 
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I've read some pro and con pieces on news sites lately where arguments are made that the US government structure has failed, that it's the fault of Congress, the President, the electorate, etc. etc. etc..

I also read one that says things are just as they should be, with a struggle taking place that will define the direction this nation will take to get wherever it is it's going. That article says "gridlock is good", and that this is exactly how the founding fathers designed the process to work.

I've grown into that argument, that this is what is supposed to happen when half want to go in one direction and half in another. This spending like there's no tomorrow flies in the face of the fact that there IS a tomorrow, and like it or not, someone has to pay the piper (I love mixing metaphors so just try to keep up) and the whole take from Peter to pay Paul thing just ends up pissing Peter off. Peter's well is going to dry up and Paul will die on the vine when the teat stops feeding him.

It's got to stop somewhere. I've been a dedicated centrist for years, voting mostly for Democratic candidates, but I'm seriously going to select the entire Republican party candidates, no matter who they nominate this coming election. I'm not going to even try to research the candidates like I always do, I'm just picking the right and going with it.

You have to steer into the curve when you start sliding... this whole idea of "business as usual, but tax the rich 'cause that's the only pocket that isn't empty" mentality is pure idiocy.

It's all about jobs (Yeah, Khross, just provide those names of contemporary economists you admire, I'll look them up and we can talk about it).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:57 am 
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The problem is that the bureacracy is expanding to meet the demands of the expanding bureacracy IMHO.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:58 am 
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America wasn't built by the government. It's from the hard workers in many industries, pioneers, farmers, artists, and so forth, that made it so great. So if the government sits around squabbling, it shouldn't make much of a difference. In fact it could help things because they're not getting in the way of people as much if they can't agree with eachother.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:08 pm 
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OMG.. I laughed so hard..

Seriously Lex? The Government isn't getting in the way of the people you listed (pioneers, farmers, industries and so forth) ?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
OMG.. I laughed so hard..

Seriously Lex? The Government isn't getting in the way of the people you listed (pioneers, farmers, industries and so forth) ?


I said 'as much'. They are getting in the way of everyone but it would be worse with non-stop legislation, especially because it seems to be misdirected a lot of the time.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:33 pm 
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There was a good op ed piece the other day commenting on why the Government was broken. Basically it boiled down to all of the unwritten rules within congress were no longer being upheld which has lead to impossible gridlock.

Or as I read it, there is no more Statesmanship. Until that changes, frankly the party in power doesn't matter, nor does the system that we use.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
The problem is that the bureacracy is expanding to meet the demands of the expanding bureacracy IMHO.

One of Oscar Wilde's most quotable sayings. I like it.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Contrary to what people think of when they espouse, or decry, "gridlock", new regulations that are imposed on the people who "built America" are continuing non-stop:
Quote:
Regulatory Trends in 2008 and 2009
By most measures, regulatory burdens increased at near record rates in 2009--due to new rules adopted by both President Bush and President Obama.
Tracking year-to-year changes in regulatory burdens is no easy task. Unlike on-budget expenditures, there is no single bottom-line figure to report for regulations. Yet, there are a number of yardsticks that can provide a fair picture of what is happening in the regulatory world.[5] Among these are the number of pages in the Federal Register and Code of Federal Regulations, the annual budgets of regulatory agencies, the number of major regulations, and the estimated costs of major regulations.
Regulatory page counts. One of the most commonly used yardsticks of regulatory activity is the size of the daily Federal Register, which reports regulatory changes. Before any new federal rule can be finalized, the agency proposing the rule must have it published in the register. In 2008, the Federal Register hit a record 79,435 pages for the year.[6] In 2009, the number dropped to 68,598. Such a decrease is not unusual in presidential transition years.
The size of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) provides a second yardstick of regulatory activity. Unlike the Federal Register, which is a catalog of regulatory changes, the CFR is a compendium of all existing regulations. In 2008, the CFR weighed in at 157,974 pages, having increased by 16,693 pages since the start of the George W. Bush Administration.[7] In 2009, the page count hit a record high of 163,333.
Number of new rules. Page counts, however, are not the best measure of the size of regulation. More important than the mere number of pages in the Federal Register or the CFR is the content of those pages: How many new rules are being adopted, and what is their cost to Americans?
Thousands of regulatory actions, or rulemakings, are completed each year: 3,503 such actions were reported in the Federal Register in 2009 alone.[8] However, many of these rules are not "regulatory" in the common usage of the word; they do not limit or impose mandates on private-sector activities. Many, for instance, are just internal rules that govern how agencies are run. Others are fiscal in nature, such as those that establish conditions for federal spending programs.
Excluding such "non-regulatory" rulemaking activity still leaves many thousands of agency actions each year that increase or decrease regulatory burdens. All of them have a cost, but their impact varies widely. Perhaps as much as 90 percent of regulatory costs are imposed by "major" or "economically significant" regulations--regulations that have an economic impact of more than $100 million. While costly, relatively few regulations reach this threshold.


If Congress didn't pass one law next year, the agencies already set up would continue to grind out new regulations unchecked. The beast will continue to feed itself:

Quote:
More than 50 agencies have a hand in federal regulatory policy, ranging from the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service to the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection. Together, these agencies enforce more than 150,000 pages of rules, with purposes and impacts as varied as the agencies themselves.


Even when one administration, while continuing the ever-increasing regulatory morass, makes a minor attempt to control the madness, the next immediately puts a stop to the attempt:
Quote:
During its eight years in office, the George W. Bush Administration compiled a mixed record on regulation. The Bush White House made significant efforts to improve the screening process for new rules: The Office of Management and Budget (through its regulatory unit, the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA)), took a more active role in reviewing proposed rules, and required more detailed cost-benefit analyses. The Bush Administration, to its credit, also took a strong stand against new regulation in many areas--most notably opposing costly economy-wide limits on CO2 emissions.
Despite these efforts, and contrary to conventional wisdom, the Bush years were not a time of regulatory shrinkage; the number and cost of federal regulations, by every measure, actually grew during this period.[2]
Once in office, President Obama quickly issued an executive order freezing uncompleted Bush Administration rule changes, and issued an executive order reversing some technical changes to OIRA regulatory review procedures.

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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:50 pm 
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Taskiss:

I don't have to provide names to cite my own research and knowledge; the sooner you figure that, especially given the accuracy of my track record here on the Glade, the sooner you will understand that I don't parrot the shills like Cowen and Krugman.

You keep saying its all about jobs, but you won't even entertain the argument because it doesn't include all your media darlings. You really don't care about knowledge or accuracy; you care about he popularity of ideas.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:56 pm 
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How about providing links to your own publications so that we can actually review it in a rational format (which an internet forum isn't).


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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:05 pm 
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I am prohibited by both of academic employment contracts from doing so. I'm also prohibited from maintaining a Facebook or similar account by both contracts.

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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Khross wrote:
You keep saying its all about jobs, but you won't even entertain the argument because it doesn't include all your media darlings.


What argument is he not entertaining? The one you refused to make because you didn't want to get into it?

Khross wrote:
Which is really all I had to say, because I honestly had no intention of arguing a complex economic point none of you have studied or researched as much as I have. I stated an opinion that Taskiss was wrong ...


You don't remember that?

Khross wrote:
You really don't care about knowledge or accuracy; you care about he popularity of ideas.


That may be, but you weren't exactly providing any counter information. So, if all the information one has is "media darlings", what information is he supposed to go by?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Government is broken, but not beyond repair. The bureaucracy snowball will continue to roll down hill, but periodically it will get hit with cuts. I haven't lost hope.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Khross,

You've stated that before. I honestly don't intend to call you a liar, but I find it extremely hard to believe that you can't provide info on your published works, but can freely post on an internet forum effectively the contents of such.

I know a very large number of people in the academic world, most of which that have published and none of them have ever commented on any limitations to sharing their publications.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross,

You've stated that before. I honestly don't intend to call you a liar, but I find it extremely hard to believe that you can't provide info on your published works, but can freely post on an internet forum effectively the contents of such.

I know a very large number of people in the academic world, most of which that have published and none of them have ever commented on any limitations to sharing their publications.


That's not fair. I wouldn't release my publications to you guys, and it's not because of a contract. I'm not interested in sharing my identity. So regardless of the reasons why not, you should back off on the personal information requests.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Khross,

You've stated that before. I honestly don't intend to call you a liar, but I find it extremely hard to believe that you can't provide info on your published works, but can freely post on an internet forum effectively the contents of such.

I know a very large number of people in the academic world, most of which that have published and none of them have ever commented on any limitations to sharing their publications.


That's not fair. I wouldn't release my publications to you guys, and it's not because of a contract. I'm not interested in sharing my identity. So regardless of the reasons why not, you should back off on the personal information requests.


I'm completely fine with that answer. But then don't hide behind some lame excuse, and more to the point, find publications that DO support your argument so that those interested can review in a format more suited to actual education and understanding.


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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Arathain:

You really shouldn't take quotes out of context like that ... it makes you look foolish. After all, I attempted to explain it to you and to Taskiss and to Hopwin, but Taskiss wouldn't read anything that wasn't someone else's idea; and you just trolled the thread.

Seems to me you're still trying to troll.

Aizle:

And my employment contracts are not theirs. Sharing my published works generally isn't a problem; disclosing my identity and employer is ... Unfortunately, I cannot do the former without doing the latter (and the latter is what violates my employment contract, especially since there are all sorts of criticisms of my employer linked to these forums).

As for the effective contents, I take great pains to not quote myself and plagiarize my own writings. There have been many times I wanted to just dump a chapter on the forums and say, "**** off unless you can get through that ..."

I, however, cannot.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:23 pm 
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its also much easier to be nasty and hateful to others capriciously when you hide behind anonymity.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:25 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
its also much easier to be nasty and hateful to others capriciously when you hide behind anonymity.
Which is why you do it ...

Of course, you might want to look up a word to replace hateful; I'd have to have some emotional investment in your existence for that to apply.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Yes. Exactly. That's why my picture is posted multiple times on the forum. That's why I challenged people to find details about me online.
I'm clearly trying to hide something, so I can continue snipe at people with impunity.

I wonder, how many times have you called someone on this board stupid, troll, moron, or some variant?
Compare that with how many times most of us have. We may insult the argument, but we rarely insult the person.

(I make an exception for exactly 3 people on this board who have made a pattern of being abusive to others, and more specifically myself.)


Last edited by TheRiov on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

You really shouldn't take quotes out of context like that ... it makes you look foolish. After all, I attempted to explain it to you and to Taskiss and to Hopwin, but Taskiss wouldn't read anything that wasn't someone else's idea; and you just trolled the thread.

Seems to me you're still trying to troll.


I did no such thing, and you know it. Challenging your statements and asking on-topic questions is not trolling. I know it's tempting to just try to dismiss counterpoints that way, but it's shallow at best.

Any attempt you made was limited at best (which is fine, as I said). All of this is resolved, in my opinion, and would be "trolling" to drag back into this thread. My only point for bringing this up is the counter to your claim that Taskiss did not entertain your argument. You didn't make one - and what portions of one you did make he addressed.


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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Well, seeing as how you just fabricated an accusation to take umbrage at out of thin air ... you're doing something ...

Arathain:

Taskiss didn't address my points. He said, pretty much at every point, "Either find a consensus to agree with you or I'm going with these people you say are wrong."

That said, you didn't challenge anything. You asked a bunch of questions that really don't matter because the questions and answers presume I agree enough with heterodox mainstream economics to entertain any validity in their thought. I realize you don't study economics and economic thought for a living, but when you're asking questions that beg a specific answer (even if you're unaware you're doing this), you're not really challenging my point as much as you're repeating ideas and cultural values foisted upon you.

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Corolinth wrote:
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Last edited by Khross on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

Taskiss didn't address my points. He said, pretty much at every point, "Either find a consensus to agree with you or I'm going with these people you say are wrong."


I could be mistaken, but I don't think that's what he said. I don't think he asked for a consensus, I think he asked for something anything that indicates a recognized expert agrees with you.

And there's certainly nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. It may be an appeal to authority, but if you're not deep in the field, it's a legitimate indicator that an idea isn't just completely made up on the spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Is goverment broken?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Khross wrote:
That said, you didn't challenge anything. You asked a bunch of questions that really don't matter because the questions and answers presume I agree enough with heterodox mainstream economics to entertain any validity in their thought. I realize you don't study economics and economic thought for a living, but when you're asking questions that beg a specific answer (even if you're unaware you're doing this), you're not really challenging my point as much as you're repeating ideas and cultural values foisted upon you.


That's an easy and convenient blanket statement to make. "Those" questions begged "a specific answer", and you're unaware you're doing this because you don't study economics for a living.

So, I don't know which questions begged which answer, or why my lack of study made me repeat ideas foisted upon me.

I may not be an expert in economics, but I know a bullshit excuse when I hear one. Hell, before you didn't want to get into it, now it's because my questions were bad.

Most of my questions were easily answered and/or it could have been explained specifically why the questions were bad.

/shrug


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:04 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Yes. Exactly. That's why my picture is posted multiple times on the forum. That's why I challenged people to find details about me online.
I'm clearly trying to hide something, so I can continue snipe at people with impunity.

I wonder, how many times have you called someone on this board stupid, troll, moron, or some variant?
Compare that with how many times most of us have. We may insult the argument, but we rarely insult the person.

(I make an exception for exactly 3 people on this board who have made a pattern of being abusive to others, and more specifically myself.)



BS. You've been on this board a long time and have taken shots at lots of people who have said jack to you. You've started crap on your own for no other reason but to be petty and antagonistic. Seems you're trying on the Monty defense of "It's these people! Not me!". Give it up.

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