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There goes the Neighborhood... https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=76 |
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Author: | Müs [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | There goes the Neighborhood... |
Sotomayor sworn in. Sad day all around. |
Author: | Aizle [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: There goes the Neighborhood... |
Glad she's in. |
Author: | darksiege [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Great... |
Author: | DFK! [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: There goes the Neighborhood... |
Aizle wrote: Glad she's in. Why? |
Author: | Monte [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Because she's a highly qualified judge? Because she's an appointee that the right did everything in their power to try and smear, and failed. Because it pisses people off. All kinds of reasons to be happy she was sworn in, including the fact that she's the first Hispanic to sit on the court. |
Author: | Rafael [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
So a judge who says that the SCotUS can de-facto author statute is qualified? How so? Explain, please. |
Author: | Corolinth [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
The liberal platform is all about consolidating power in the hands of the ruling elite. If we get enough liberal judges who can de-facto author statute on the Supreme Court, then we can mitigate the damage in the event that the uneducated masses of retarded Christians successfully rally to elect another Republican president. |
Author: | Monte [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
We've had this discussion. I'm not sure I'm interesting in trying to convince you of how wrong you are, why you're being misleading, and how you are taking her quote out of context. I will leave you to stew in the idea that she's there, just waiting to usher in the homosexual agenda, or something. Just waiting. |
Author: | Rafael [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Monte wrote: We've had this discussion. I'm not sure I'm interesting in trying to convince you of how wrong you are, why you're being misleading, and how you are taking her quote out of context. I will leave you to stew in the idea that she's there, just waiting to usher in the homosexual agenda, or something. Just waiting. [youtube]ug-qUvI6WFo[/youtube] Yes, it's so misleading. Don't place the race card anymore, either. It's quite offensive, especially considering I was nearly engaged to a woman of Colombian descent. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the idiocy. |
Author: | Monte [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
It is misleading. She was accurately answering a question - courts *do* make policy. It *is* the way the world works. That doesn't qualify as an endorsement of such behavior on her part, nor does it function as a statement of how she would judge. Her record does not back up your accusation, and her answers during her confirmation also don't back up your accusation. Dammit. I thought I was going to let you just stew in your hate on this one. My bad. |
Author: | Rafael [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
It's misleading because she's not accurately answering the question, because if that were the case, it would blow your entire position out of the water. You simply can't stand the fact that people have objections to her being confirmed that don't have to do with race. You are uncomfortable talking about discussing the actual issue, because if you can't distill the topic down to something like racism (which you are imminently excel at being) you don't have anything useful to say. How do you substantiate that her record does or does not back up such a statement when such an item is completely intangible to begin with? Courts do *not* make policy. Policy makers make policy. It *is* the way the world works. Dammit, I thought I was going to let you just stew in your ignorance on this one. My bad. See, fiat declarations an argument do not make. |
Author: | Aizle [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: There goes the Neighborhood... |
DFK! wrote: Aizle wrote: Glad she's in. Why? She appears to be quite qualified and level headed and I believe having additional diversity on the SCOTUS is a good thing. Rafael, there is nothing wrong with her comments on that video. If anything, she's being more honest and forthright than most. It's unfortunately that you can't see it for what it is. |
Author: | Monte [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:43 am ] |
Post subject: | |
That wouldn't fit the frame, Aizle. Rafael was *told* that her comments meant she thought judges should make law, and he believed that lie because he wanted it to be true. You can't convince him otherwise. The frame must be maintained, and anything outside of it does not constitute reality for him. |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:44 am ] |
Post subject: | |
What's unfortunate is that you're applauding concession of the status quo as "honest and forthright" action. Afterall, since corporate lobbyist exert significant influence over Congress, calling them "policy makers" in a half-hearted tone of concession should be honest and forthright as well, correct? No, instead of being an instrument to spearhead change where the courts might actually perform the function intended, she falls back on ethnicity, maintains the status quo, and is applauded by people obsessed with race. People so obsessed, they draw unnecessary attention and drive wedges where they profess to want peace. |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Monte wrote: That wouldn't fit the frame, Aizle. Rafael was *told* that her comments meant she thought judges should make law, and he believed that lie because he wanted it to be true. You can't convince him otherwise. The frame must be maintained, and anything outside of it does not constitute reality for him. I wasn't *told* that by anyone you presumption twit. I listend to it and deciphered it from what was clearly stated. Let's not forget, you are the person who read this section of The Constitution: Spoiler: And thought it meant that anyone who wasn't alive when Constitution was ratified has been ineligible as President. I call into question your ability to read and understand things written or spoken in English. Now go away. Aizle and I are trying to actually discuss something, and while I don't speak for him, I wouldn't appreciate you sidling up to me all buddy-buddy like with your **** caked hands trying to slap me a high five and call ourselves "brethren" or whatever ridiculous term you use in your head. |
Author: | Monte [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:51 am ] |
Post subject: | |
If you could spout Glenn Beck's talking points any faster, you could do work as an auctioneer. A person's life experiences contribute in a meaningful way to the work they do. That includes their ethnic heritage, as Sam Alito pointed out during his confirmation hearings so eloquently. The reaction to her comments were just more conservative hair-on-fire panic. She had more federal bench time than anyone currently on the court before they joined. |
Author: | Aizle [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Rafael wrote: What's unfortunate is that you're applauding concession of the status quo as "honest and forthright" action. Afterall, since corporate lobbyist exert significant influence over Congress, calling them "policy makers" in a half-hearted tone of concession should be honest and forthright as well, correct? No, instead of being an instrument to spearhead change where the courts might actually perform the function intended, she falls back on ethnicity, maintains the status quo, and is applauded by people obsessed with race. People so obsessed, they draw unnecessary attention and drive wedges where they profess to want peace. I'm honestly confused with what you're getting all riled up for on that particular clip. What she's describing is the very core of how the court system works. Congress creates the laws, and then as she describes they "percolate" through the court system, being tweaked and refined through rulings and precidence. I don't really see anything wrong with that process, and it's one that has been in effect since the beginning of the court system, so it's not like it's some new liberal revisionist agenda or something. |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:18 am ] |
Post subject: | |
It's not about a revisionist agenda, it's about rulings setting precedent that has nothing to do with the intent of the law. Go to any district or municipal court over things like city ordanace; the way they function is not how the Federal government functions, not supposed to anyway. Monte, go away. |
Author: | Aizle [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 am ] |
Post subject: | |
So certainly a bad judge can set precedence poorly. But that is why we have the whole appeal process, so that one rogue judge with an agenda doesn't cripple the system. But similarly the judges need to have the power to set precedence to do the rest of their functions. |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:28 am ] |
Post subject: | |
But their only function is to assert the Constitutionality of policy (the USSC anyway). That's a very far cry from calling it "making policy". That doesn't even approach such a declaration. |
Author: | Ladas [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Aizle wrote: I'm honestly confused with what you're getting all riled up for on that particular clip. What she's describing is the very core of how the court system works. Congress creates the laws, and then as she describes they "percolate" through the court system, being tweaked and refined through rulings and precidence. I don't really see anything wrong with that process, and it's one that has been in effect since the beginning of the court system, so it's not like it's some new liberal revisionist agenda or something. For what it is worth, at a basic level I agree that her description, while badly worded, was more about how the current system works, and less about flaunting legislative power. My primary objection to her is her court history and some of the decisions she has made, based primarily on this "experience", or racial prejudice she has. Much like your comment that having "diversity" on the USSC is a good thing, I disagree with this sentiment, as I feel that the in order for justice to truly be fair, it must be "blind" and objective, whereas the very notion of "racial experiences" introduces subjective criteria. In an ideal setting, if the law fails to maintain and even and fair outcome and requires subjective "tweaking" to work, the law should be voided (the purpose of the high courts) and either redone in a more fair manner or abandoned. |
Author: | Monte [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: There goes the Neighborhood... |
Ladas - which decisions, specifically, are you referring to? And can you show how, in the text of her decisions, she does what you claim? Rafael - you first. Door's that way. |
Author: | DFK! [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: There goes the Neighborhood... |
Aizle wrote: DFK! wrote: Aizle wrote: Glad she's in. Why? She appears to be quite qualified and level headed and I believe having additional diversity on the SCOTUS is a good thing. I concur with this. The questions that arise then are: 1) Was she the most qualified to do the job, or did the "diversity" metric overrule qualifications. 2) Does her "level-headedness" simultaneously demonstrate an adherence to Constitutional principles, rather than social activist principles? If not, what other qualification does she have that overrides Constitutionality? Aizle wrote: Rafael, there is nothing wrong with her comments on that video. If anything, she's being more honest and forthright than most. It's unfortunately that you can't see it for what it is. Her attitude and phrasing are the issue, as her point cannot be clearly garnered vis. whether she supports that m.o. or not. I have less problems with that video than her racism and genderism. |
Author: | Monte [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: There goes the Neighborhood... |
DFK! wrote: The questions that arise then are: 1) Was she the most qualified to do the job, or did the "diversity" metric overrule qualifications. Well, I think you'll find differing answers to that. I'm sure some will say she's unqualified *because* she's a Latina. That her heritage and success somehow combine into proof that her whole life was a story of affirmative action. She is at *least* as qualified as any other member of the Supreme Court. I find her diversity to be icing on the cake. Quote: 2) Does her "level-headedness" simultaneously demonstrate an adherence to Constitutional principles, rather than social activist principles? If not, what other qualification does she have that overrides Constitutionality? She has a record of ruling on settled law, fairly and accurately. Her judicial record is one of fealty to the law, not to a political agenda. Now, she may not hold the same opinions you do on constitutional principles and questions, but that does not disqualify her for the role. No, you didn't argue that, I'm speaking more in the general than the specific. Quote: Her attitude and phrasing are the issue, as her point cannot be clearly garnered vis. whether she supports that m.o. or not. I have less problems with that video than her racism and genderism. Her attitude is entirely a subjective call, born of a clip from a question she fielded at a panel discussion. In other words, you're taking this sliver of a moment from her life, and asking if that disqualifies her for the highest court in the land. She isn't a racist, nor is she a sexist, and people that claim that are being terribly misleading and unfair to her. they are taking one sentence out of an entire, long statement, and ignoring the context in which it was written. There is nothing in her history, her judicial work, or her body of opinions that supports such a claim. |
Author: | DFK! [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: There goes the Neighborhood... |
Monte wrote: DFK! wrote: The questions that arise then are: 1) Was she the most qualified to do the job, or did the "diversity" metric overrule qualifications. Well, I think you'll find differing answers to that. I'm sure some will say she's unqualified *because* she's a Latina. That her heritage and success somehow combine into proof that her whole life was a story of affirmative action. She is at *least* as qualified as any other member of the Supreme Court. I find her diversity to be icing on the cake. I didn't ask if she's as qualified as other members of the Supreme Court (which hasn't been demonstrated either way and is thus unproven), I asked if she was the best qualified candidate. That hasn't been proven either, nor even addressed. Monty wrote: DFK! wrote: 2) Does her "level-headedness" simultaneously demonstrate an adherence to Constitutional principles, rather than social activist principles? If not, what other qualification does she have that overrides Constitutionality? She has a record of ruling on settled law, fairly and accurately. Her judicial record is one of fealty to the law, not to a political agenda. I didn't examine her case history item by item, so admittedly I'm ignorant on this matter: what evidence do you have to support this claim? Monty wrote: Now, she may not hold the same opinions you do on constitutional principles and questions, but that does not disqualify her for the role. Quite correct, it does not. Whether she adheres her beliefs to the Constitution is a valid question, and only partially subjective. Monty wrote: DFK! wrote: Her attitude and phrasing are the issue, as her point cannot be clearly garnered vis. whether she supports that m.o. or not. I have less problems with that video than her racism and genderism. Her attitude is entirely a subjective call, born of a clip from a question she fielded at a panel discussion. In other words, you're taking this sliver of a moment from her life, and asking if that disqualifies her for the highest court in the land. Of course it's subjective, which is why I said her point "cannot be clearly garnered." Monty wrote: She isn't a racist, nor is she a sexist, and people that claim that are being terribly misleading and unfair to her. they are taking one sentence out of an entire, long statement, and ignoring the context in which it was written. There is nothing in her history, her judicial work, or her body of opinions that supports such a claim. Anecdotal evidence from speeches of hers and her judicial opinions refutes this claim. She has stated that a "latina" would come to a "better" opinion. This is indicative of both race and gender bias, as "latina" is a descriptor for both race and gender lines, and "better" is a qualitative measure indicating superiority. Furthermore, as supported by the law, her decisions in affirmative action cases have been shown incorrect, and in the eyes of the courts, they thereby affirm racism. While this is in some ways an appeal to authority, the court system lives on appeals to authority, and so I feel a valid concern since she is now at the head of the court system itself. |
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