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No constituional right not to be framed?
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Author:  Squirrel Girl [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  No constituional right not to be framed?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1103/p02s18-usju.html

Quote:
Washington - The US Supreme Court on Wednesday is set to consider an unusual question: Do Americans who have been framed by unscrupulous prosecutors for crimes they did not commit have a right to sue the prosecutors when the fraud is finally exposed?

According to the Obama administration, the answer is no.

Solicitor General Elena Kagan argues in a friend of the court brief that local, state, and federal prosecutors must enjoy absolute immunity from citizen lawsuits – even when they sent innocent men to prison for life by fabricating incriminating evidence and hiding exculpatory evidence.

Those are the allegations in a case from Iowa set for oral argument on Wednesday morning. According to legal briefs filed in the case, prosecutors in Pottawattamie County, Iowa, solicited false testimony implicating two innocent African-American teens in the murder of a recently retired police officer in 1977. At trial, the false testimony led to their convictions. They were sent to prison for life.

When the false testimony and other exculpatory evidence was discovered, the two innocent men, Curtis McGhee and Terry Harrington, were released after 25 years in prison. They filed a lawsuit against the prosecutors.

The question before the high court is whether the prosecutors can be held accountable in a civil trial or instead are entitled to absolute immunity from such lawsuits.

"If the allegations here are true, [the Iowa officials] engaged in prosecutorial misconduct of an execrable sort, involving a complete breach of the public trust," Solicitor General Kagan writes in her brief to the court. "But absolute immunity reflects a policy judgment that such conduct is properly addressed not through civil liability, but through a host of other deterrents and punishments."

Author:  Rafael [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:15 am ]
Post subject: 

The proscecuter should have to serve the same term he falsely imprisoned people to or something. Immunity to lawsuits, I can see where this would be useful, but the court should be able to determine whether or not "prosecutorial misconduct" occurred or not. Therefore, suing the DA or DA's office doesn't seem likely to be abused.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:21 am ]
Post subject: 

If they fabricate evidence or fail to provide disclosure to teh defense of exculpatory evidence they should be disbarred, forced to repay the individual and sentenced to at least the same term the defendent was setenced to.

Author:  Corolinth [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:18 pm ]
Post subject: 

**** what the Obama administration thinks.

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

Constitution - whats that?

Author:  Khross [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No constituional right not to be framed?

What's the defense for the Obama Administration on this one?

Author:  Beryllin [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No constituional right not to be framed?

Khross wrote:
What's the defense for the Obama Administration on this one?


That ordinary citizens do not have standing, of course. DUH!

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

I would love to see the ACLU take on the administration on this in the media. I'm not holding my breath, even though the defendants are black, too.

Author:  Rafael [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

Poor ACLU, they have so many pending lawsuits, they must be drowning in paper work. They file lawsuits more than posts get reported around here ... oops.

Author:  Ladas [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:21 pm ]
Post subject: 

For those interested in considerably more information about this case.

Author:  Talya [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Rafael wrote:
Poor ACLU, they have so many pending lawsuits, they must be drowning in paper work. They file lawsuits more than posts get reported around here ... oops.



This post was reported, because Müs is a practical-joking troublemaker. So cut something out, and don't do it anymore. Whatever it is. And don't tell me about it later.

Carry on.

Author:  Rafael [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

I see what you did there.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

I dislike the idea of qualified immunity as its often cited to protect ignorant, arrogant, and malciious actors.

Author:  Müs [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

:mrgreen:

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

This is not an Obama issue, this is a government issue. Were any other person president, the position of the administration would be the same.

That said, this will be very interesting to see where this ends up. The administration is trying to prevent an avalanche of frivolous lawsuits that could potentially cripple the legal system.

I personally am torn on this one. On the main hand, I dislike anyone being "above the law" and feel that if there really are grievances, there needs to be a method for redress (i.e. lawsuits). However, I can appreciate the governments concerns about a tide of lawsuits coming in for perceived wrongs that would delay the already slow legal process.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yes lets not persue the coprruption of the legal system because it might become annoying for a bit.

If they are knowingly introducing testimony they know to be false or pruposefully hindering the introduction of evidence they need to go away (preferrably six feet away).

Author:  Khross [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No constituional right not to be framed?

Aizle:

What would your defense be should Obama strangle a kitten on television and post it on his MySpace?

Author:  Müs [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No constituional right not to be framed?

Khross wrote:
Aizle:

What would your defense be should Obama strangle a kitten on television and post it on his MySpace?



The kitten had it coming.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Elmarnieh wrote:
Yes lets not persue the coprruption of the legal system because it might become annoying for a bit.

If they are knowingly introducing testimony they know to be false or pruposefully hindering the introduction of evidence they need to go away (preferrably six feet away).


Working for the DEpartment of Redundancy Department?

In all seriousness, there should be no immunity for prosecutors for knowingly fabricating evidence or otherwise framing someone. The police aren't immune for this sort of thing; don't see why lawyers should be.

On the other hand, there definitely should be immunity from lawsuits for people who are convicted in good faith and later found innocent. While they deserve compensation, it shouldn't come from people who did what they were supposed to do.

Author:  Stathol [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Aizle wrote:
This is not an Obama issue, this is a government issue.


Quote:
Solicitor General Elena Kagan argues in a friend of the court brief that local, state, and federal prosecutors must enjoy absolute immunity from citizen lawsuits – even when they sent innocent men to prison for life by fabricating incriminating evidence and hiding exculpatory evidence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Solicitor_General
Quote:
The United States Solicitor General is the person appointed to represent the Government of the United States before the Supreme Court of the United States. Currently, the Solicitor General is Elena Kagan, who was confirmed by the United States Senate on March 19, 2009.

The Solicitor General determines the legal position that the United States will take in the Supreme Court. In addition to supervising and conducting cases in which the government is a party, the Solicitor General's office also files amicus curiae briefs in cases in which the federal government has a significant interest in the legal issue. The Solicitor General's office argues on behalf of the government in virtually every case in which the United States is a party, and also argues in most of the cases in which the government has filed an amicus brief. In the federal courts of appeals, the Office of the Solicitor General reviews cases decided against the United States and determines whether the government will seek review in the Supreme Court. The Solicitor General's office also reviews cases decided against the United States in the federal district courts and approves every case in which the government files an appeal.

She was appointed by and continues to serve at the discretion of Obama to be the legal advocate of the entire United States federal government. So yes, it is very much Obama's problem.

Aizle wrote:
Were any other person president, the position of the administration would be the same.

This is speculation. It may be true (I suspect it would be for the previous administration, at least), but it's still speculation. And it didn't happen under any other president, it happened under Obama. If the Solicitor General isn't the responsibility of the sitting president, then whose responsibility is (s)he?

But regardless of that, what you say is no defense. Essentially, it's like saying: "It's not my problem that I knocked over a liquor store, because other people knock over liquor stores too!" Pointing out that others would do the same does not absolve you of your own responsibilities.

Author:  Stathol [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No constituional right not to be framed?

Müs wrote:
The kitten had it coming.


http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/12/03/
Spoiler:
Image

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Stathol wrote:
But regardless of that, what you say is no defense. Essentially, it's like saying: "It's not my problem that I knocked over a liquor store, because other people knock over liquor stores too!" Pointing out that others would do the same does not absolve you of your own responsibilities.


Way to miss the point. I wasn't saying it was a defense. What I was reacting to was the OMG OBAMA IS THE DEBIL!!!!!!11!!!!1!one!!!! undercurrent in the posting.

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No constituional right not to be framed?

Khross wrote:
Aizle:

What would your defense be should Obama strangle a kitten on television and post it on his MySpace?


Khross:

What would be the obtuse point you're trying to make?

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Aizle wrote:
Stathol wrote:
But regardless of that, what you say is no defense. Essentially, it's like saying: "It's not my problem that I knocked over a liquor store, because other people knock over liquor stores too!" Pointing out that others would do the same does not absolve you of your own responsibilities.


Way to miss the point. I wasn't saying it was a defense. What I was reacting to was the OMG OBAMA IS THE DEBIL!!!!!!11!!!!1!one!!!! undercurrent in the posting.



So we shouldn't judge him based on the actions of those he appointed and who serve at his whim but the hypothetical actions of others who you claim would do the same horrible thing?

Author:  Aizle [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Elmarnieh wrote:
Yes lets not persue the coprruption of the legal system because it might become annoying for a bit.

If they are knowingly introducing testimony they know to be false or pruposefully hindering the introduction of evidence they need to go away (preferrably six feet away).


Indeed, corrupt people need to be punished and removed. While direct legal action against a department is one way, I don't believe it is the only way.

I also want to point out, I don't have a fully formed opinion on this, as I don't have anywhere near the detail to make an informed opinion. As I thought I made clear in my post, my initial reaction is that no one should be above the law.

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