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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:32 pm 
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For the youtube impaired this is a short clip of Ronald Reagan's "tear down this wall" speech:

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In the 1950s, Khrushchev predicted: "We will bury you." But in the West today, we see a free world that has achieved a level of prosperity and well-being unprecedented in all human history. In the Communist world, we see failure, technological backwardness, declining standards of health, even want of the most basic kind--too little food. Even today, the Soviet Union still cannot feed itself. After these four decades, then, there stands before the entire world one great and inescapable conclusion: Freedom leads to prosperity. Freedom replaces the ancient hatreds among the nations with comity and peace. Freedom is the victor.

And now the Soviets themselves may, in a limited way, be coming to understand the importance of freedom. We hear much from Moscow about a new policy of reform and openness. Some political prisoners have been released. Certain foreign news broadcasts are no longer being jammed. Some economic enterprises have been permitted to operate with greater freedom from state control.

Are these the beginnings of profound changes in the Soviet state? Or are they token gestures, intended to raise false hopes in the West, or to strengthen the Soviet system without changing it? We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace.

General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!


[youtube]YtYdjbpBk6A[/youtube]

Why we should care:

Again for youtube impaired it's a 4 minute segment by ReasonTV (Libertarian based organization) that talks to the man behind the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. He briefly goes through the death toll and oppression of the communist empires and shows some paintings done by a survivor of the Soviet Gulag.


[youtube]2prVpI7m4tM[/youtube]

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Ross Douthat in todays NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/opini ... ss&emc=rss

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There will be speeches and celebrations to mark this anniversary, but not as many as the day deserves. (Barack Obama couldn’t even fit a visit to Berlin into his schedule.) By rights, the Ninth of November should be a holiday across the Western world, celebrated with the kind of pomp and spectacle reserved for our own Independence Day.

Never has liberation come to so many people all at once — to Eastern Europe’s millions, released from decades of bondage; to the world, freed from the shadow of nuclear Armageddon; and to the democratic West, victorious after a century of ideological struggle.

Never has so great a revolution been accomplished so swiftly and so peacefully, by ordinary men and women rather than utopians with guns.

Twenty years later, we still haven’t come to terms with the scope of our deliverance. Francis Fukuyama famously described the post-Communist era as “the end of history.” By this, he didn’t mean the end of events — wars and famines, financial panics and terrorist bombings. He meant the disappearance of any enduring, existential threat to liberal democracy and free-market capitalism.

This thesis has been much contested, but it holds up remarkably well. Even 9/11 didn’t undo the work of ’89. Osama bin Laden is no Hitler, and Islamism isn’t in the same league as the last century’s totalitarianisms. Marxism and fascism seduced the West’s elite; Islamic radicalism seduces men like the Fort Hood shooter. Our enemies resort to terrorism because they’re weak, and because we’re so astonishingly strong.

Yet nobody seems quite willing to believe it. Instead, we keep returning to the idea that liberal society is just as vulnerable as it was before the Berlin Wall came down.

On the right, pundits and politicians have cultivated a persistent cold-war-style alarmism about our foreign enemies — Vladimir Putin one week, Hugo Chavez the next, Kim Jong-il the week after that.

On the left, there’s an enduring fascination with the pseudo-Marxist vision of global capitalism as an enormous Ponzi scheme, destined to be undone by peak oil, climate change, or the next financial bubble.


Meanwhile, our domestic politics are shot through with antitotalitarian obsessions, even as real totalitarianism recedes in history’s rear-view mirror. Plenty of liberals were convinced that a vote for George W. Bush was a vote for theocracy or fascism. Too many conservatives are persuaded that Barack Obama’s liberalism is a step removed from Leninism.

These paranoias suggest a civilization that’s afraid to reckon with its own apparent permanence. The end of history has its share of discontents — anomie, corruption, “The Real Housewives of New Jersey.” And it may be that the only thing more frightening than the possibility of annihilation is the possibility that our society could coast on forever as it is — like a Rome without an Attila to sack its palaces, or a Nineveh without Yahweh to pass judgment on its crimes.

Humankind fears judgment, of course. But we depend on it as well. The possibility of dissolution lends a moral shape to history: we want our empires to fall as well as rise, and we expect decadence to be rewarded with destruction.

Not that we want to experience this destruction ourselves. But we want it to be at least a possibility — as a spur to virtue, and as a punishment for sin.

This was how the Soviet threat often played on the home front. Remove the stain of segregation, liberals argued in the 50s, or the Communists will win the world. Repent of your hedonism and pacifism, neoconservatives urged Americans in the 70s, or the West will go the way of Finland.

Neither group wanted the United States to lose the cold war. But they wanted to inhabit a world where America could lose, and pass into history, if we failed to live up to our ideals.

This could be why we don’t celebrate the anniversary of 1989 quite as intensely as we should. Maybe we miss living with the possibility of real defeat. Maybe we sense, as we hunt for the next great existential threat, that even the end of history needs to have an end.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:34 pm 
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Personally I dont think people celebrate the end of something which killed a lot of people. Once a number gets too large, people lose concept...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:53 pm 
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When you assume that your society is permanent, that nothing could possibly threaten your freedom - that is when you give up your liberty. That NYT article is nothing more than feel-good foolishness for a western society too impressed with patting itself on the back.

The battle for freedom is never over. Someone always conspires to rob you of it. These threats may not always be large, but they do exist. Osama bin Laden couldn't bring down the United States, but he still tried.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:42 pm 
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I remember I was in 5th grade. I didn't really understand it all then, but I knew it was important. I knew it was a sign the good guys were winning. I knew then it was important, something i'd remember all my life, like Challenger, only good.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:03 pm 
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I had a young friend, first year of college, on vacation in Berlin (east coast school, week long quarter break, and cheap flights) when the wall fell. He partied hard with people he couldn't converse with for three days, ignoring his vacation itinerary. His was the most interesting story of anyone I knew at the time.

Today he's a police officer in Berkeley. You never can tell.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:51 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
When you assume that your society is permanent, that nothing could possibly threaten your freedom - that is when you give up your liberty. That NYT article is nothing more than feel-good foolishness for a western society too impressed with patting itself on the back.

The battle for freedom is never over. Someone always conspires to rob you of it. These threats may not always be large, but they do exist. Osama bin Laden couldn't bring down the United States, but he still tried.


He tried, I suppose. I think the point is that comparatively there is no equivalent existential threat nearly as large as the communism symbolized by the Berlin wall. So to some extent we create threats: i.e. Global warming and peak oil, even terrorism. Or at least exaggerate them.

I think the take away for me is that considering what we faced in WWII and then the cold war, it's surprising that the fall of the wall is so seemingly trivial and understated.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:57 am 
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I'm still waiting for people to take the threat of "Kashi Go Lean Crunch" seriously. Nothing takes away freedom like a nasty fart that confines you to a very specific area for fear of spreading contamination.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:17 am 
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I am very humbled by recent experience with Kashi. It is indeed a knife poised against the throat of our sovereignty.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:22 am 
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Dash wrote:
I think the point is that comparatively there is no equivalent existential threat nearly as large as the communism symbolized by the Berlin wall.


I think our current government (in large part) is an equal threat to liberty.

I also think I'm not going to do anything about it, and that nobody else is either, because we essentially can't.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:43 am 
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DFK! wrote:
Dash wrote:
I think the point is that comparatively there is no equivalent existential threat nearly as large as the communism symbolized by the Berlin wall.


I think our current government (in large part) is an equal threat to liberty.

I also think I'm not going to do anything about it, and that nobody else is either, because we essentially can't.



I do think the biggest threats to "Western" society are from within; attempts to enforce a more egalitarian society, homogenization, attempts to control speech into "politically correct" terms, attempts to penalize industriousness and prop up laziness, an unwillingness to act decisively against threats, to name just a few examples. These things are insidious and will be our downfall.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:32 am 
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Define "Western" society for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:42 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Define "Western" society for me.


I put it in quotes because it's such an arrogant term, and I don't like it much, as it implies that the Americas are the epitome of freedom and propserity, when countries like Australia, Japan and South Korea are as much a part of it as the Americas.

"Western" society is a concept; a society based on freedom (at the individual level; collective freedoms mean nothing. All freedoms are individual) in most aspects of our lives. "Western" countries tend to have "representative democracies" (shut up, Khross. I put the word in quotes for a reason), free enterprise with minimal government involvement in day-to-day lives. They also tend to be affluent, with the consumer having all the luxuries of life within their grasp. It has never been perfect, and various countries have excelled in different areas of this, while falling behind in others.

Through the cold-war, this was mostly Western Europe, North America, Australia, Japan, South Korea. It's expanded since the end of the cold war era, but even as more countries adopt a western style of governance, it's being corrupted in almost all of them by elements which slowly take these freedoms away.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:43 am 
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Cowboys and Indians, steam powered trains, within 30 years of the end of the Civil War.

Saloons!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Cowboys and Indians, steam powered trains, within 30 years of the end of the Civil War.

Saloons!


Don't forget giant robot spiders.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Talya wrote:
(shut up, Khross. I put the word in quotes for a reason)


Flagrant violation. Since this is a first offense I'll only ban you for 9 years... or the fall of western democracy, whichever comes first.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:47 pm 
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Mookhow wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Cowboys and Indians, steam powered trains, within 30 years of the end of the Civil War.

Saloons!


Don't forget giant robot spiders.


Saloon doors are required. They shall be hinged on the outer sides, slatted bodies and spring loaded with no damping (other than natural) so as snap back and forth several times before resting close. They shall not extend below the waste nor above the chin of an average man.

The Saloon shall serve only whiskey and "fire-water". One of these is a subset of the other. Which one is, is anyone's guess.

Primitive "steam-punk" technology such as crude refridgeration is strictly prohibited, as are Doc Emmitt Brown wannabes. Saloon bar-maids shall be dressed in excessively frilly Victorian age dress. The men shall be grimy but not exceptionally greasy. Perpetual stubble which is neither shaven nor grows is a prerequisite. There shall be one (1) Native American man in the Saloon who is aloof, suspicious, but well respected by the regulars and well learned in the ways and dress of "The White Man" and the 12" revolver but still an expert with indigenous weapons. He plays a pivotal role later in the plot. He can drink inhuman amounts of liquor with seemingly no effect.

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Last edited by Rafael on Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Dashel:

At least cite her for the proper infraction.
Talya wrote:
External Baggage
Each thread should exist in a vacuum. What this means is that you can't carry over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion.

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Dashel:

At least cite her for the proper infraction.
Talya wrote:
External Baggage
Each thread should exist in a vacuum. What this means is that you can't carry over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion.


Dude, you're gonna get nailed for vigilante moderation :p

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:17 pm 
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I think it would be poetic justice if Taly came in and nailed him.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:22 pm 
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The best laid plans ...

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:32 pm 
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Western culture is certainly more than the U.S. It most definitely includes Australia in every sense of the word.

Japan is a more interesting question. They have adopted much of western culture, but they retain much of eastern culture. They are very westernized, but are not a western culture, if that distinction makes sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:46 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
I think it would be poetic justice if Taly came in and nailed him.


Me? Yes. That would indeed be awesome.

hehe :mrgreen:

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Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:54 pm 
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Now suddenly I'm trying to envision how you would build a nailgun that drives dildos.

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