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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:46 pm 
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http://salon.com/news/opinion/camille_p ... index.html
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Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi scored a giant gain for feminism last weekend. In shoving her controversy-plagued healthcare reform bill to victory by a paper-thin margin, she conclusively demonstrated that a woman can be just as gritty, ruthless and arm-twisting in pursuing her agenda as anyone in the long line of fabled male speakers before her. Even a basic feminist shibboleth like abortion rights became just another card for Pelosi to deal and swap.

It was a stunningly impressive recovery for someone who seemed to be coming apart at the seams last summer, when a sputtering, rattled Pelosi struggled to deal with the nationwide insurgency of town hall protesters -- reputable, concerned citizens whom she outrageously tried to tar as Nazis. Whether or not her bill survives in the Senate is immaterial: Pelosi's hard-won, trench-warfare win sets a new standard for U.S. women politicians and is certainly well beyond anything the posturing but ineffectual Hillary Clinton has ever achieved.

As for the actual content of the House healthcare bill, horrors! Where to begin? That there are serious deficiencies and injustices in the U.S. healthcare system has been obvious for decades. To bring the poor and vulnerable into the fold has been a high ideal and an urgent goal for most Democrats. But this rigid, intrusive and grotesquely expensive bill is a nightmare. Holy Hygeia, why can't my fellow Democrats see that the creation of another huge, inefficient federal bureaucracy would slow and disrupt the delivery of basic healthcare and subject us all to a labyrinthine mass of incompetent, unaccountable petty dictators? Massively expanding the number of healthcare consumers without making due provision for the production of more healthcare providers means that we're hurtling toward a staggering logjam of de facto rationing. Steel yourself for the deafening screams from the careerist professional class of limousine liberals when they get stranded for hours in the jammed, jostling anterooms of doctors' offices. They'll probably try to hire Caribbean nannies as ringers to do the waiting for them.
There's more at the link.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:00 pm 
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I've always liked her.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:08 pm 
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You did not know who she was until I introduced you to her. That's a very short "always."

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Maybe she meant Pelosi?

Pfthahahahaa

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:51 pm 
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Khross wrote:
You did not know who she was until I introduced you to her. That's a very short "always."



Well, always since you introduced me to her! That was a few years and three iterations of the glade ago!

It was after I discovered "Sex-Positive Feminism." Only I didn't realize it already had a name, I was just posting my own theory on the subject, one already written about at length by Paglia, whom I'd never heard of. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:34 pm 
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Anyone who uses "limousine liberal" looses credibility, in my estimation. The idea that liberalism from the wealthy is somehow invalid is just silly.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Anyone who uses "limousine liberal" looses credibility, in my estimation. The idea that liberalism from the wealthy is somehow invalid is just silly.
Too funny.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:47 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Anyone who uses "limousine liberal" looses credibility, in my estimation. The idea that liberalism from the wealthy is somehow invalid is just silly.


Methinks you miss the point of the phrase. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:48 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Anyone who uses "limousine liberal" looses credibility, in my estimation. The idea that liberalism from the wealthy is somehow invalid is just silly.


You need to recalibrate your estimation. Liberalism in general is predicated on unsound and untenable principles. It's just amusing what so-called "limousine liberals" are capable of.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:48 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Anyone who uses "limousine liberal" looses credibility, in my estimation. The idea that liberalism from the wealthy is somehow invalid is just silly.


I have to admit it does conjure up the correct image when used. It's also an oxymoron. They used capitalism to get where they are, now they want to keep theirs and spread mine around to everyone else. But it is typical political bs. Like Clinton calling people teabaggers. Sorry Bill, you got impeached for diddling an intern with a cigar. Leave the derrogatory terms alone.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:53 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Liberalism in general is predicated on unsound and untenable principles.


Ignorance at it's finest.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:59 pm 
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Hannibal, you mistakenly assume that liberals automatically oppose and/or hate capitalism. While some may, most simply oppose unregulated or free wheeling capitalism. There is a significant difference.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Montegue:

The United States has the single most regulated markets on the planet; yet, it's not enough. What, exactly, constitutes the bright line on economic and trade regulation sufficiency?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:03 pm 
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I call bullshit on that Khross. You're going to need to back up that claim on regulation.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Montegue:

The United States has the single most regulated markets on the planet; yet, it's not enough. What, exactly, constitutes the bright line on economic and trade regulation sufficiency?


What does that have to do with the price of tea in china? (edit - I call bullshit as well. There is a reason the rest of the world was really pissed at us over the financial crisis. The kinds of products and tactics we allowed they regulated. Short selling, for example)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Aizle:

How many Federal agencies have regulatory authority when it comes to some or all of the economy? Do you know? How many non-statutory regulations exists in the United States? What Federal agencies can alter trade in a certain segment of the economy by fiat?

Montegue:

The rest of the world wasn't pissed off over credit default swaps and collateralized debt obligations. The rest of the world was pissed off they lost money on unsecured securities. More importantly, they were pissed off that private credit rating agencies got away with and continue to get away with criminal fraud. They do not, however, cop to the duplicity of that attitude when their own credit rating agencies do the same thing.

To both of you:

"Ignorance at its finest" is the continued insistence that the United States is a wholly unregulated economy with little to no government oversight or intrusion in markets. It has been demonstrated, repeatedly, that the entire financial crisis was not only precipitated by government behavior but fueled by the same actions and monetary regulation that created the market in the first place. The entire financial crisis was a failure of over-regulation and government intrusion in the first place. Yet, you two continue to assert that U.S. markets lack regulation and lack oversight, despite a preponderance of the evidence otherwise.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:13 pm 
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Monte wrote:
(The kinds of products and tactics we allowed they regulated. Short selling, for example)


Bad example. Short Sales are allowed on almost every stock market in the world.

Not saying the rest of your argument is right or wrong, just the example was bad.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:37 pm 
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I like Paglia as well but sometimes she's over the top.

EDIT: Not this time! But sometimes. She's always a good read though.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Rafael wrote:
Liberalism in general is predicated on unsound and untenable principles.


Ignorance at it's finest.


Ok, fine. Modern American Liberalism is predicated on economically and fiscally untenable principles as evidenced by the efforts of the Democratic and Republican Parties.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Khross wrote:
Montegue:

The United States has the single most regulated markets on the planet; yet, it's not enough. What, exactly, constitutes the bright line on economic and trade regulation sufficiency?


What does that have to do with the price of tea in china? (edit - I call bullshit as well. There is a reason the rest of the world was really pissed at us over the financial crisis. The kinds of products and tactics we allowed they regulated. Short selling, for example)


Define why a shorting is bad. Define how it's intrinsically different from a mortgage.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Rafael:

I'm fairly certain Montegue is talking about bad-faith shorts which have occurred with alarming frequency in recent months. Technically, shorts are already regulated and require the trade to have the stock or money covered before the transaction is negotiated. In practice, however, less than credible traders have been arranging shorts and covering their *** afterwards.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:52 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle:

How many Federal agencies have regulatory authority when it comes to some or all of the economy? Do you know? How many non-statutory regulations exists in the United States? What Federal agencies can alter trade in a certain segment of the economy by fiat?

Montegue:

The rest of the world wasn't pissed off over credit default swaps and collateralized debt obligations. The rest of the world was pissed off they lost money on unsecured securities. More importantly, they were pissed off that private credit rating agencies got away with and continue to get away with criminal fraud. They do not, however, cop to the duplicity of that attitude when their own credit rating agencies do the same thing.

To both of you:

"Ignorance at its finest" is the continued insistence that the United States is a wholly unregulated economy with little to no government oversight or intrusion in markets. It has been demonstrated, repeatedly, that the entire financial crisis was not only precipitated by government behavior but fueled by the same actions and monetary regulation that created the market in the first place. The entire financial crisis was a failure of over-regulation and government intrusion in the first place. Yet, you two continue to assert that U.S. markets lack regulation and lack oversight, despite a preponderance of the evidence otherwise.


Classic diversion. None of what you post here is relevant to proving the bold claim you made, which is that the US is the most regulated market in the world. That is quite frankly the only information I'm interested in hearing from you at this point.

Or to put it in the common vernacular, "put up or shut up".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:57 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Rafael:

I'm fairly certain Montegue is talking about bad-faith shorts which have occurred with alarming frequency in recent months. Technically, shorts are already regulated and require the trade to have the stock or money covered before the transaction is negotiated. In practice, however, less than credible traders have been arranging shorts and covering their *** afterwards.


That's the people who held the assets getting shorted's fault for not having the due dilligence to investigate their counter-party risk. Such regulation is more akin to the supposed reasons for the FDA and various drug prohibitions more than anything else.

Aizle: he's asking a rhetorical question to which he knows you don't know the answer to prove a point.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:09 pm 
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While the US is not a free market, the regulatory load in the US is nothing compared to, say, Japan.

Rafael wrote:
That's the people who held the assets getting shorted's fault for not having the due dilligence to investigate their counter-party risk. Such regulation is more akin to the supposed reasons for the FDA and various drug prohibitions more than anything else.

Aizle: he's asking a rhetorical question to which he knows you don't know the answer to prove a point.


Do you really want to live in a world where you have to privately investigate every single entity you do business with to make sure they're not lying about the state of their finances?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Aizle, Montegue, and Xequecal:

Regulation in the United States is, unfortunately, not quite as transparent as it is in most other countries. Part of the problem is tracking economic regulation in the United States stems from the diffuse nature of government agencies with regulatory power. The Federal Agencies can be drawn from this list, but many of them are not as obvious as they seem. Beyond that, we have to consider the history of judicial regulation and over Congressional regulation not overseen by any of the bodies mentioned in that list. That said, the short answer to why the U.S. has the most regulated economy in the world is Commerce Clause expansion.

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