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Interesting Reason article on Necessary and Proper Clause
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Author:  DFK! [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Interesting Reason article on Necessary and Proper Clause

Case coming up before the Supreme Court, apparently:

http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/13/p ... ngressiona

Quote:
Putting a Stop to Congressional Overreach
It's time for the Supreme Court to enforce the Necessary and Proper Clause
Damon W. Root | November 13, 2009

In early September, Fox News host Andrew Napolitano asked Rep. James Clyburn (D-S.C.), the third-ranking Democrat in the House of Representatives, precisely what part of the Constitution authorized Congress to enact health care legislation. "There's nothing in the Constitution that says that the federal government has anything to do with most of the stuff we do," Clyburn replied. "How about [you] show me where in the Constitution it prohibits the federal government from doing this?"

It was a rare flash of honesty from an elected official, revealing not only Clyburn’s ignorance of the Constitution but his overt hostility to the document’s system of checks and balances. And Clyburn is hardly alone. In legislation dealing with everything from crime to education, Congress routinely oversteps its constitutional bounds. As Napolitano later remarked, Clyburn seems “to have conveniently forgotten that the federal government has only specific enumerated powers.”

Later this term, the U.S. Supreme Court will have a great opportunity to remind Clyburn and his colleagues of those limits when it hears oral arguments in the case of U.S. v. Comstock. At issue is the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act of 2006, which empowers federal officials to order the indefinite civil commitment of "sexually dangerous" persons who have finished serving a federal sentence, or who are currently in the custody of the attorney general because they were found mentally incompetent to stand trial. In other words, the government isn’t willing to let these people back on the streets.

In its brief to the Supreme Court, the government argues that Congress possesses this authority under the Constitution’s Necessary and Proper Clause, which grants Congress the power "to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States."

Yet as the text itself clearly specifies, any law passed under the Necessary and Proper Clause must also be tied to a specifically enumerated constitutional power, either one of the "foregoing powers" listed in Article I, Sec. 8, or one of the "other powers vested by this Constitution." As James Madison told the Virginia ratifying convention, the Necessary and Proper Clause "only extended to the enumerated powers. Should Congress attempt to extend it to any power not enumerated, it would not be warranted by the clause."

So where among the "foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution" did Congress happen to find an explicitly enumerated power to indefinitely detain "sexually dangerous" prisoners?

The answer is: Nowhere. The Constitution provides no such authority. Indeed, as a superb friend of the court brief filed in the case by Georgetown law professor Randy Barnett makes clear, "However well intentioned Congress may have been, it had no power to legislate for the purpose of protecting the public from dangerous persons....The Necessary and Proper Clause is not an independent source of Congressional power."

Nor may Congress rely on the Commerce Clause—another favored source for sweeping federal power. Under that clause, which the government has briefly raised as a justification in the case, Congress possesses the authority "to regulate commerce...among the several states," a power the Supreme Court has controversially extended to cover intrastate commerce as well as commerce "among the states." Most recently, in Gonzales v. Raich (2005), the Court permitted the federal government to regulate the local cultivation of medical marijuana in California on the extremely dubious grounds that such cultivation also affected the nationwide market.

Yet the law at issue in Comstock fails to meet even the Court’s notoriously generous Raich interpretation—something the Barnett brief is careful to explain. As Justice Antonin Scalia held in his Raich concurrence, "Congress may regulate noneconomic intrastate activities only where the failure to do so 'could...undercut' its regulation of interstate commerce." Since overturning the law in Comstock would in no way undercut any legitimate federal regulation of commercial activity, neither Raich nor the Commerce Clause apply.

Which brings us back to Rep. Clyburn and his colleagues. With so many members of Congress either unwilling or unable to abide by the clear limitations imposed by the plain text of the Constitution, the time has come for the Supreme Court to rein them in. Enforcing the Necessary and Proper Clause is a great way to start.

Damon W. Root is an associate editor at Reason magazine.

Author:  Screeling [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

Good stuff.

Author:  Xequecal [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting Reason article on Necessary and Proper Clause

Eh, the 16th amendment gives the federal government basically unlimited power by itself. If the health care bill gets struck down as an overreach, they'll just re-pass it as a "suggestion" and then pass a law alongside it saying that all the citizens of any state that doesn't adopt it have to pay 90% income tax. That's how they force through anything they don't normally have the power to do, like mandating education standards and the drinking age.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:10 am ]
Post subject: 

And when they do that I and many others just put a bullet in their brain and anyone who tries to do anything similar. Problem solved until generations go by and people forget and it repeats.

Author:  Khross [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting Reason article on Necessary and Proper Clause

Xequecal:

The Sixteenth Amendment does nothing. I've explained this more times than I care to repeat, but it's an empty document. Income Taxation is derived by the power of indirect taxation and precedes the Sixteenth's passage. The Court had decided that matter long ago.

Author:  Corolinth [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Elmarnieh wrote:
And when they do that I and many others just put a bullet in their brain and anyone who tries to do anything similar. Problem solved until generations go by and people forget and it repeats.
The problem is only solved if people actually grab their guns.

Author:  Micheal [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

Since Elmarnieh considers himself capable of and willing to carry out the assassination of elected officials without due process of law, does this make him a dangerous man?

Does his stating here that he plans to do this make us accessories before the fact? The assassinations would not be legal, depriving citizens of their rights and lives without due process of law. Should we alert the police that this dangerous man is plotting the assassination of politicians if they do something he doesn't like (the criteria he is using would have to be he doesn't like what they did since the killings would not be justifiable by constitutional law)?

Two wrongs do not make a right. One unconstitutional act does not fix another unconstitutional act, and usually just makes matters worse.

Author:  darksiege [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

I would like to politely request that someone stop posting things that could involve others in a conspiracy or treason type suit should something happen to one of these elected officials...

Kind of like when my sister in law kept talking about how she wanted to have my brother beaten bloody for being a dick to her.. we all know he deserves it, but FFS do not put it in print where others can get in trouble for it with you...

Author:  Xequecal [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting Reason article on Necessary and Proper Clause

Khross wrote:
Xequecal:

The Sixteenth Amendment does nothing. I've explained this more times than I care to repeat, but it's an empty document. Income Taxation is derived by the power of indirect taxation and precedes the Sixteenth's passage. The Court had decided that matter long ago.


Alright, I can believe that. It's not really relevant to my point though. The federal government has no real limits on its power. The absolute power to tax effectively removes all of them. They can use the taxation power to force the states to accept anything they insist on.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Micheal wrote:
Since Elmarnieh considers himself capable of and willing to carry out the assassination of elected officials without due process of law, does this make him a dangerous man?

Does his stating here that he plans to do this make us accessories before the fact? The assassinations would not be legal, depriving citizens of their rights and lives without due process of law. Should we alert the police that this dangerous man is plotting the assassination of politicians if they do something he doesn't like (the criteria he is using would have to be he doesn't like what they did since the killings would not be justifiable by constitutional law)?

Two wrongs do not make a right. One unconstitutional act does not fix another unconstitutional act, and usually just makes matters worse.



Since elected officials have proven themselves capable of falsely imprisoning others, grand theft, breaking and entering, human trafficking, and violation of civil rights under the color of law - that does make them dangerous men.

You seem to forget that law derives not people who have granted themselves special immunity to it and exercise power contrary to it - but that it derives from the justness of actions of established contracts. In short how can we have a "due process of law" when no such thing exists?

And the law mandates you need a specific threat to a specific individual - not an imagined future context. You can deal with the reality of the situation now if you would like.

Oh and:
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Author:  Micheal [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:44 am ]
Post subject: 

So you are threatening to murder generic elected officials, not specific ones?

Your revolution will be interesting to watch, if you ever have the brass to follow through with it. Personally, I hope you fall into the first category of the old axiom, "Them that talk about it, didn't do it. Them that did it, don''t talk about it."

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:11 am ]
Post subject: 

Hopefully we will never have to find out Micheal. Personally I find it would be much easier if I just didn't talk about doing the right thing and mocked those who did. Then at least I could enjoy wrapping myself in the blanket of self-delusion about my responsibility to protect the rights of others.

Author:  Micheal [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:18 am ]
Post subject: 

I'm not mocking you Elmarnieh. you appear to be doing a fine job of doing that to yourself.

I'm trying to illustrate the mockery you are making of your cause. Empty threats to murder people in the name of your political ideals is terrorism. An armed revolt against our government is doomed to failure unless it is a military coup d'etat.

Even then it will most likely fail unless the perpetrators achieve an amazing amount of support from all forces.

You appear to be under the illusion that waving your virtual gun around gives you the power to create change. For the most part, it appears to me that you are planning on a suicidal attempt to 'execute' elected officials in support of your political views, your interpretation of the constitution. This is not rule of law, this is rule of terror.

Or these are empty words to make you feel better about your, and the rest of our, inability to retrack our government to the job it was set up to do.

Your anger is understandable. Posting threats on people's lives, even if it isn't specific people's lives you are threatening, seems to me to be one of the more childish ways you could be handling this. No one is going to take you seriously. No one is going to believe you are going to do it.

Please stop threatening to kill the politicians whose job performance doesn't meet your standards. Work to vote them out of office instead.

Author:  Corolinth [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

darksiege wrote:
I would like to politely request that someone stop posting things that could involve others in a conspiracy or treason type suit should something happen to one of these elected officials...
We weren't worried about this when we had a fascist, theocratic Republican president, why should we be worried now? Because the president is black?

I suppose I can see that. The U.S. government is a bunch of **** racists.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Micheal wrote:
I'm not mocking you Elmarnieh. you appear to be doing a fine job of doing that to yourself.

I'm trying to illustrate the mockery you are making of your cause. Empty threats to murder people in the name of your political ideals is terrorism. An armed revolt against our government is doomed to failure unless it is a military coup d'etat.

Even then it will most likely fail unless the perpetrators achieve an amazing amount of support from all forces.

You appear to be under the illusion that waving your virtual gun around gives you the power to create change. For the most part, it appears to me that you are planning on a suicidal attempt to 'execute' elected officials in support of your political views, your interpretation of the constitution. This is not rule of law, this is rule of terror.

Or these are empty words to make you feel better about your, and the rest of our, inability to retrack our government to the job it was set up to do.

Your anger is understandable. Posting threats on people's lives, even if it isn't specific people's lives you are threatening, seems to me to be one of the more childish ways you could be handling this. No one is going to take you seriously. No one is going to believe you are going to do it.

Please stop threatening to kill the politicians whose job performance doesn't meet your standards. Work to vote them out of office instead.


Not at all Michael although I can see how you would be put more at ease by embracing the idea that IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE where it is something you fear such as political assassination, revolt, or a coup. Perhaps it is because you cannot or will not come to accept the terms that there are those out there to whom force it the only language they would understand. Perhaps your fear is because you believe that such actions cannot enact positive change (our country is proof positive that it can). The Rule of Law ha already been done away with so appealing to is as if it currently exists is unrealistic.

My words are not empty and nor do I speak only for myself. We are a fine line away from violence being the order of the day. I don't like it but I don't try to pretend that it isn't the case and I don't try to hide from my duty as a citizen and as a person who has taken an oath. Revolution and coup are usually blood mechanisms which result in harm to many innocents. When force must be used it must be used in the most narrow focus to do the most good. Assassination of those who ignore the law and replace it with the enforcement of their will is the most productive course for it creates the highest causal link between corruption and high consequence disincentive.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Corolinth wrote:
darksiege wrote:
I would like to politely request that someone stop posting things that could involve others in a conspiracy or treason type suit should something happen to one of these elected officials...
We weren't worried about this when we had a fascist, theocratic Republican president, why should we be worried now? Because the president is black?

I suppose I can see that. The U.S. government is a bunch of **** racists.


We should be worried because each election cycle more power is concentrated into fewer hands and they have already proven to ignore reason when using force. His concerns are valid for his own sake. The tumble of our decline must be halted before the momentum requires an action that plunges us all into poverty.

Author:  Lydiaa [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting Reason article on Necessary and Proper Clause

and shooting them will not solve the problem as the majority of people wanted to give up their freedom in the first place. (Other wise they would be voted out next season).

You need to have a country of people wanting... needing freedom behind you to make a difference. Other wise they'll just replace the one you shot with one similar.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject: 

If we can create a large enough disincentive for corrupting the trust of the people and breaking their oath and law we should be able to prevent enough who wish to wield power from running that others will run, get elected and then be able to tear down the mechanisms that have disabled the separation of powers and limits.

Author:  DFK! [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting Reason article on Necessary and Proper Clause

Hi there. I can't speak for the other moderators, but I'm pretty certain I'm not comfortable with our message board being known for advocating the assassination of politicians.

As such, please stop doing so.

Feel free to talk about the subject in the abstract, but the potential legal ramifications of continuing on the current discussion path are such that the entire board could conceivably be compromised.

Author:  Lydiaa [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:11 pm ]
Post subject: 

You can't create a large enough disincentive. The government has to do that.
As I said the people themselves has to want the type of freedom you want, other wise they are simply following a different massiah (In this case a red muppet one) and get to continue being sheeple. You, by accepting these people's trust would be no different than any politician in front of you, doing things for the 'good of the people' based on your own opinion with the hollow echos of the mindless.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:21 pm ]
Post subject: 

Save for the obeying of the highest law of the land and my oath to such - and since that is the biggest issue no I wouldn't be just like them.

Author:  darksiege [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Corolinth wrote:
We weren't worried about this when we had a fascist, theocratic Republican president, why should we be worried now? Because the president is black?

I suppose I can see that. The U.S. government is a bunch of **** racists.


on previous incarnations it seemed a lot less prevalent. I do not remember having threads that straight out advocated giving the politicians the zombie treatment instead of preaching. And to be completely honest; i do not discourage the idea of thinning the gene pool... I just do not want my work to filter the site as a radical extremist site or some BS like that

Author:  Monte [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Elmarnieh wrote:
And when they do that I and many others just put a bullet in their brain and anyone who tries to do anything similar. Problem solved until generations go by and people forget and it repeats.



Why do you do this?

Author:  Rafael [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

I know it's easy to demonize what Elmo has saying because it seems so far removed from the principles of our country, but remember this country was founded by a bunch of people who didn't want to pay taxes to a government that no longer served primarily for the protection of their rights and they were so opposed, they actually went to war for it.

Life and death are not so great of concepts that the idea of killing and dying for ideals should be viewed in great awe. We celebrate those who sacrificed for such a cause; but we understand why the chose to do so.

Author:  Monte [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Rafael wrote:
I know it's easy to demonize what Elmo has saying because it seems so far removed from the principles of our country, but remember this country was founded by a bunch of people who didn't want to pay taxes to a government that no longer served primarily for the protection of their rights and they were so opposed, they actually went to war for it.


They were not angry that they were paying taxes into a government that wasn't doing what they wanted. They were angry that they were paying taxes into a government in which they had no representation. That is a key difference, and one that Elmo entirely misses in his push for a violent overthrow of the democratic process in this country.

No one in this country is entitled to have their subjective political views borne out in the public square. No one. And make no mistake - the anger that Elmo has is not righteous anger over the Objective Truth of our guiding principles. His anger is at a government that isn't doing what he wants it to do.

That makes his mission one of tyranny. He would overthrow the duly elected government of this nation because it isn't behaving how he wants it. Instead of doing the hard work of convincing the people of this country that his ideas are correct, he would rather murder people, shed blood, and in general get his way by the sword. Elmo, your ideology did not win the election. This is a representative republic. Advocating open violence against politicians that you subjectively believe have violated their oaths is disgusting. There's no other way to describe it, although "dangerous" and possibly "illegal" come very quickly to mind.

You would take the lives of government officials who are doing what they have been elected to do because they aren't doing what you *want* them to do. It's tyranny. In fact, there is no clearer example of Tyranny that I can think of off the top of my head. This is why Dr. King was infintely more successful at effecting social change than Malcom X ever would have been had he been violent.

Quote:
Life and death are not so great of concepts that the idea of killing and dying for ideals should be viewed in great awe.


No. I do not revere your fetishism when it comes to violence. You might think that killing and dying for ideals is worthy of great awe in and of itself, but in the end, the actual ideals themselves must also be worthy.

You aren't being oppressed because our country might pass public health care. And if you take someone's life because of that, then you will only be remembered as a petty, murdering thug.

Quote:
We celebrate those who sacrificed for such a cause; but we understand why the chose to do so.


You would not be celebrated.

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