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 Post subject: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:10 am 
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Thought this should go here. Might spark some debate. On monday one of my homeroom kids brought in a B.B. Gun that looked like a real glock. I think it was the smallest make, I don't know makes very well, I think a 45 is tiny. Am i right? IDK not sure. Anyway, he has 10 days OSS. This of course is considered a weapon. The kid himself is an ADHD kid and is sweet but goofy. Very immature and had a "Police badge", fake of course, with it. Don't know if he had any intentions to use it. This falls under the Zero tolerance policy thing again, like in rants, and this is grounds for expulsion.

I didn't catch him, our Special ed teacher did. I left early on monday for the hospital, so I got to see it this morning in my principal's office and it does look real.

THOUGHTS?

I'll let you know what happens when more is made known to me from my principals

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:20 am 
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How old?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:24 am 
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Yeah, age is going to be a real factor here.


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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:34 am 
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6th graders 12

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:35 am 
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It's case by case. Expulsion seems way overboard. Assuming the kid made an innocent mistake based on your description as sweet, goofy and immature. Although how did he get a realistic looking bb gun in the first place. That's just stupidity giving that to a 12 year old child.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:37 am 
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Thoughts.

1. Kid is being stupid and should know better at that age.
2. Parents are being stupid and should have a better handle on their kids.
3. Assuming OSS is a suspension of some type, 10 days seems actually quite rational. I've heard of other schools where it would have been a permanent suspension, as a BB gun is actually a weapon vs. something like a soft air gun, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:44 am 
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It's less of a stretch to call a B.B. gun a weapon than a pocket knife. There's also no chance the kid forgot he had it in his pocket from working with his dad the day before (the classic excuse for having a knife).

Ten days out of school isn't at all inappropriate. Kids know they're not supposed to bring a B.B. gun to school. I know people think B.B. guns are toys, and those people are stupid. A B.B. gun is for learning and practicing proper firearm handling with something that isn't likely to kill anyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:49 am 
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Does he have a disciplinary IEP?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:57 am 
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If he did that here, he'd be in jail:

Quote:
549.18 POSSESSION OF AN OBJECT INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM A FIREARM IN A SCHOOL SAFETY ZONE.

(a) No person shall knowingly possess an object in a school safety zone if both of the following apply:

(1) The object is indistinguishable from a firearm, whether or not the object is capable of being fired.

(2) The person indicates that the person possesses the object and that it is a firearm, or the person knowingly displays or brandishes the object and indicates that it is a firearm.

(b) (1) This section does not apply to any of the following:

A. An officer, agent, or employee of this or any other State or the United States, or a law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry deadly weapons or dangerous ordnance and is acting within the scope of the officer’s, agent’s, or employee’s duties, a security officer employed by a board of education or governing body of a school during the time that the security officer is on duty pursuant to that contract of employment, or any other person who has written authorization from the board of education or governing body of a school to convey deadly weapons or dangerous ordnance into a school safety zone or to possess a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a school safety zone and who conveys or possesses the deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in accordance with that authorization;

B. Any person who is employed in this State, who is authorized to carry deadly weapons or dangerous ordnance, and who is subject to and in compliance with the requirements of Ohio R.C. 109.801, unless the appointing authority of the person has expressly specified that the exemption provided in this division (b)(1)B. does not apply to the person.

(2) This section does not apply to premises upon which home schooling is conducted. This section also does not apply to a school administrator, teacher or employee who possesses an object that is indistinguishable from a firearm for legitimate school purposes during the course of employment, a student who uses an object that is indistinguishable from a firearm under the direction of a school administrator, teacher or employee, or any other person who, with the express prior approval of a school administrator, possesses an object that is indistinguishable from a firearm for a legitimate purpose, including the use of the object in a ceremonial activity, a play, re- enactment or other dramatic presentation, or a ROTC activity or another similar use of the object.

(3) This section does not apply to a person who conveys or attempts to convey a handgun into, or possesses a handgun in, a school safety zone if, at the time of that conveyance, attempted conveyance, or possession of the handgun, all of the following apply:

A. The person does not enter into a school building or onto school premises and is not at a school activity.

B. The person is carrying a valid license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under Ohio R.C. 2923.125 or 2923.1213 or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued by another State with which the Attorney General has entered into a reciprocity agreement under Ohio R.C. 109.69.

C. The person is in the school safety zone in accordance with 18 U.S.C. § 922(q)(2)(B).

D. The person is not knowingly in a place described in Ohio R.C. 2923.126(B)(1) or (B)(3) to (10).

(4) This section does not apply to a person who conveys or attempts to convey a handgun into, or possesses a handgun in, a school safety zone if at the time of that conveyance, attempted conveyance, or possession of the handgun all of the following apply:

A. The person is carrying a valid license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under Ohio R.C. 2923.125 or 2923.1213 or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued by another state with which the Attorney General has entered into a reciprocity agreement under Ohio R.C. 109.69.

B. The person is the driver or passenger in a motor vehicle and is in the school safety zone while immediately in the process of picking up or dropping off a child.

C. The person is not in violation of Ohio R.C. 2923.16.

(c) Whoever violates this section is guilty of illegal possession of an object indistinguishable from a firearm in a school safety zone. Except as otherwise provided in this division, illegal possession of an object indistinguishable from a firearm in a school safety zone is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of a violation of this section, illegal possession of an object indistinguishable from a firearm in a school safety zone is a felony to be prosecuted under appropriate state law.

(d) (1) In addition to any other penalty imposed upon a person who is convicted of or pleads guilty to a violation of this section, and subject to division (d)(2) of this section, if the offender has not attained 19 years of age, regardless of whether the offender is attending or is enrolled in a school operated by a board of education or for which the State Board of Education prescribes minimum standards under Ohio R.C. 3301.07, the court shall impose upon the offender a class four suspension of the offender's probationary driver's license, restricted license, driver's license, commercial driver's license, temporary instruction permit, or probationary commercial driver's license that then is in effect from the range specified in Ohio R.C. 4510.02(A)(4) and shall deny the offender the issuance of any permit or license of that type during the period of the suspension. If the offender is not a resident of this State, the court shall impose a class four suspension of the nonresident operating privilege of the offender from the range specified in Ohio R.C. 4510.02(A)(4).

(2) If the offender shows good cause why the court should not suspend one of the types of licenses, permits or privileges specified in division (d)(1) of this section or deny the issuance of one of the temporary instruction permits specified in division (d)(1) of this section, the court in its discretion may choose not to impose the suspension, revocation or denial required in division (d)(1) of this section.

(e) As used in this section, “object that is indistinguishable from a firearm” means an object made, constructed or altered so that, to a reasonable person without specialized training in firearms, the object appears to be a firearm.

(ORC 2923.122(C) - (G))

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:59 am 
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Remember, kids with ADHD have the decision making capability of a child about 2/3rds their chronological age. So this child makes decisions like an 8 year old.

However, in this case an 8 year old should have known better too. 10 days may be a bit harsh though, but suspension is warranted imho.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:01 am 
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45s are decent size guns. They are the largest of the common pistols. As a prison guard I know said, "We see guys in here with bullet scars up to about a 38. We don't see guys with .45 scars." Hydrostatic shock is a major factor with a with 45 wounds. The bullet is bigger and the loads tend to be bigger to make sure the bullet gets where its aimed.

Either way, as a BB gun, it was firing a much smaller pellet, but it was firing a projectile that could with good placement do some serious damage. He may not be mentally capable of realizing what he had done, but he had brought a potentially dangerous tool to school.

I think Aizle hit it on the head. Unfortunately, the days of verbally ***** the kid and telling him not to do it again are gone. Punishment has to be meted and an example has to be made so iit doesn't escalate with the other kids (well James brought a gun to school, why can't I?)

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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:42 am 
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No, this kid knows the difference. We here question the validity of his ADHD because Mom says from a doctor report which she NEVER showed us from when he transferred here that he has ADHD, but funny though she won't give it to the nurse for us to put on record. She argues this with our Language Arts teacher and Science teacher all the time, but never once has showed us the documentation. We keep telling her that, but she won't listen. I'm not saying she is lying, it is her kid, but really?

I think the hyper part is true. However, this kid will zone out and focus in on a book for an hour if I let him. Which makes me question the AD part. He pays attention in my class and math because he likes those subjects. This kid actually scores high on my Social Studies tests like 95-100 everytime. Same with Math. Very bright in his answers, always scores well on tests, but never hands in any work. That is why his grade comes to a B-.

He is really hyper though! Chatterbox, won't sit still for anything, and looks like he is buzzing off some speed. Except during class time. Pays complete attention and sits still and listens. All the buzzing is during transition times during homeroom.

He is one of the smarter kids I have and the math teacher had him tested for gifted, didn't pass the gifted test. I think this ADHD is suspcious, but I can definetly say knowing this kid personally, he knows the difference

My whole issue with this is where did he get it? He lives only with his mom, No dad, and she works all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:51 am 
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A BB gun IS a weapon; just not a terribly dangerous one. It can, however, cause serious injuries, most notably blindness if something particularly unfortunate happens. More importantly, this particular one actually looks like a real gun. There's nothing inappropriate about 10 days for this.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:06 am 
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Was it an actual .177 Cal bb gun or was it one of those spring loaded ones that shoot plastic pellets? Was it an airsoft gun? How real looking- did it have an orange tip on it? Oonagh knows her pistols so if it looked real to her then that's a pproblem
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:09 am 
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10 days out is good. It's a nice solid kick in the *** that is visible to other students and yet won't wreck him.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:25 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
Was it an actual .177 Cal bb gun or was it one of those spring loaded ones that shoot plastic pellets? Was it an airsoft gun? How real looking- did it have an orange tip on it? Oonagh knows her pistols so if it looked real to her then that's a pproblem
Lots of


She said it looked like a real Glock. Those don't have orange tips. As to what kind of pellets it fired, that would be even less obvious than the difference between a BB gun that looks like a Glock and and actual Glock.

In any case, even little plastic pellet-shooters have no business in school. I got hit in the eye once in 7th grade with a hard candy someone threw at me, and he was aiming for my eyes. I could barely see out of it until dinner time. Kids don't need to have that kind of thing available given the bullying and other social bullshit that takes place in middle school.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:34 am 
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A lot of the BB, airsoft and even some paintball guns look exactly like real guns. They should have the orange tip...but due to modifications, some don't.

So, if you are looking at a weapon, how can you distinguish? I think the kid and the parents need the lesson, maybe not expulsion 1st time, but definately on repeat offenses.

Being kicked out of school is minor price to pay if the parents and kid learns from the experience. Better that than getting killed when they pull it out and someone with a concealed weapon shoots them, because they couldn't tell the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:43 am 
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Oonagh wrote:
I think the hyper part is true. However, this kid will zone out and focus in on a book for an hour if I let him. Which makes me question the AD part.

Why?

I have a battery of tests from the early 80's that demonstrate my diagnosis. I *never* had a problem getting absorbed in books that interested me. I won't claim to speak broadly and generalize to every ADHD case, but for me and my ADHD, if something interested me, it was much easier to hold my attention. The Attention Deficit is that when tasks are BORING or REPETITIVE, I can't focus on them and am easily distracted even if I know they're important.

Or, rather -- my difficulty in focusing and ease of distraction is measurable and significantly different than normal. Which is, you know, what the battery of tests come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:45 am 
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I have to be obsessed with something for it to hold my attention beyond 15 minutes, usually.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:49 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Was it an actual .177 Cal bb gun or was it one of those spring loaded ones that shoot plastic pellets? Was it an airsoft gun? How real looking- did it have an orange tip on it? Oonagh knows her pistols so if it looked real to her then that's a pproblem
Lots of


She said it looked like a real Glock. Those don't have orange tips. As to what kind of pellets it fired, that would be even less obvious than the difference between a BB gun that looks like a Glock and and actual Glock.

In any case, even little plastic pellet-shooters have no business in school. I got hit in the eye once in 7th grade with a hard candy someone threw at me, and he was aiming for my eyes. I could barely see out of it until dinner time. Kids don't need to have that kind of thing available given the bullying and other social bullshit that takes place in middle school.


Yeah it did not have an orange tip

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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:54 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Oonagh wrote:
I think the hyper part is true. However, this kid will zone out and focus in on a book for an hour if I let him. Which makes me question the AD part.

Why?

I have a battery of tests from the early 80's that demonstrate my diagnosis. I *never* had a problem getting absorbed in books that interested me. I won't claim to speak broadly and generalize to every ADHD case, but for me and my ADHD, if something interested me, it was much easier to hold my attention. The Attention Deficit is that when tasks are BORING or REPETITIVE, I can't focus on them and am easily distracted even if I know they're important.

Or, rather -- my difficulty in focusing and ease of distraction is measurable and significantly different than normal. Which is, you know, what the battery of tests come up with.


He is an entertain me kind of kid, if that means anything. I think most of that has to do with adjusting to new technology which most teachers don't get yet. Except ME!! WOO-HOO Go computers :)

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 Post subject: Re: One of my students
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Oonagh wrote:
I think the hyper part is true. However, this kid will zone out and focus in on a book for an hour if I let him. Which makes me question the AD part. He pays attention in my class and math because he likes those subjects.


You probably aught to familiarize yourself better with ADHD, given its prevalence. Nothing you've said here would indicate the child doesn't have ADHD. In fact, in some circumstances ADHD children become hyper-focused to a degree greater than 'normal' children.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:23 pm 
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10 days sounds excessive 3 days maybe or maybe some ISS.

Did anyone yet ask why he brought it in?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Do you really think 3 days will make much of an impression? 10 seems more likely to show that the school will not tolerate these things and send a message. It's too bad it has to be done this way, but if it helps? Absolutely worth it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:44 pm 
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That depends entirely on the kid. If the kid regularly gets in trouble and doesn't seem to care about school then no amount of being away from it is going to teach any lesson whatsoever.

This kid doesn't sound like that though.

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