The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:03 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 172 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:23 am 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
The Health Care Bill, a pdf http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/07/ ... index.html

House passes health care reform bill
November 8, 2009 12:40 a.m. EST

The House narrowly passed its health reform bill on Saturday.

Washington (CNN) -- The House of Representatives on Saturday night passed a sweeping health care bill by a vote of 220-215.

With the passage of H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, proponents of health care reform took an important step forward, but turning the bill into law remains uncertain.

It's unclear when the Senate will vote on a version of the health care legislation debated in that chamber. If the Senate passes its bill, the House and Senate bills would have to be reconciled into one document and voted on again.

The House Democrats needed 218 votes to ensure passage of the bill. On Saturday, it appeared the vote would come down to the wire, as the intentions of some conservative Democrats remained unknown.

In the final tally, 219 Democrats voted for the legislation, and 39 voted against it.

Rep. Joe Cao (R-Louisiana) was the only Republican who voted in favor of the bill.

Democrats began counting down with eight seconds left in the voting period and erupted in a loud cheer when the hotly debated legislation was passed. Republicans in the chamber stood across the floor, some with their arms folded.

"Oh what a night," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in a news conference after the House adjourned its session for the night. She thanked President Obama and her colleagues who fought to get the bill passed.

The Republican National Committee released a statement after the vote.

"Today with help from their liberal House allies, President Obama and Nancy Pelosi finally got what they have been creating behind closed doors these past months -- a government-run health careexperiment that will increase families' health care costs, increase the deficit, increase taxes on small businesses and the middle class, and cut Medicare," the statement said.

Earlier, the House passed an amendment to pending health care legislation that prohibits federal funds for abortion services in the public option and in the insurance "exchange" the bill would create.

The vote passed 240-194.

A second amendment considered by the House, introduced by Minority Leader John Boehner, which would have substituted several sections of the health care bill dealing with insurance, did not pass. Legislators voted against the amendment 258-176.

The first amendment, introduced by anti-abortion Democrats, bans federal funds for abortion services in the public option and in the insurance "exchange" the bill would create. Its consideration was considered a big win for them and for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which used its power -- especially with conservative Democrats in swing congressional districts -- to help force other Democratic leaders to permit a vote that most of them oppose.

The prohibition, introduced by Democratic members, including Rep. Brad Ellsworth, D-Indiana, and Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Michigan, would exclude cases of rape, incest or if the mother's life is in danger.

Republicans strongly supported the measure.

The GOP accounted for 174 of the votes in favor of the amendment, with 1 Republican voting "present." On the Democrats' side, 64 voted for the measure, and 194 voted against.

Earlier Saturday, President Obama said members of the House of Representatives face the chance of a lifetime as they consider the legislation.

After a meeting with the House Democratic leadership, the president said he told lawmakers that "opportunities like this come around maybe once in a generation."

"This is their moment, this is our moment, to live up to the trust that the American people have placed in us," Obama told reporters in the White House rose garden. "Even when it's hard, especially when it's hard, this is our moment to deliver."

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:44 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Goodbye American freedom.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:22 am 
Offline
Near Ground
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 6782
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Hello hyperbole.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:48 am 
Offline
Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 5073
f**k politicians and their god damned bullshit. F**k their families and f**k their family pets.

I sincerely am beginning to despise what this country is becoming.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:08 am
Posts: 6465
Location: The Lab
FarSky wrote:
Hello hyperbole.


Id be interested in some expanded thought here? What point are you trying to make? To what end?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:45 am
Posts: 889
The word that comes to mind for me is "disappointing". /sigh


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:23 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Midgen wrote:
FarSky wrote:
Hello hyperbole.


Id be interested in some expanded thought here? What point are you trying to make? To what end?


I think he was poiting out the hyperbole in DFK!'s comment directly above his, but didn't bother to quote it.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:15 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:54 am
Posts: 2369
Quote:
It's unclear when the Senate will vote on a version of the health care legislation debated in that chamber. If the Senate passes its bill, the House and Senate bills would have to be reconciled into one document and voted on again.


That's the take away here. Close vote, still has a ways to go so nothing is set in stone yet.

_________________
“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:20 pm 
Offline
Deuce Master

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:45 am
Posts: 3099
FarSky wrote:
Hello hyperbole.

Dude, seriously, do you ever have any thoughts of your own on the subjects in Hellfire or do you just come in here to ridicule?

_________________
The Dude abides.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:07 pm 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
FarSky wrote:
Hello hyperbole.


You are forced to purchase a product.

Failure to do so can result in your incarceration.



Explain how that "not being free" is hyperbole?

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:30 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Alright, even if you do support this bill, procedurally, it is going to be nightmare for anyone to know exactly what's in the package being voted on with the way the proceedings are described above.

Also, the way you determine if it's hyperbole or not is if it's something that's for "The Good of the People" or not which is to say, something Democrats have proposed.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:38 pm 
Offline
Eatin yur toes.
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:49 am
Posts: 836
In terms of absolute freedom, you're already not free. See what happens if you decline to pay your taxes or heed a law enforcement officer.

It's hyperbolic to claim that this is the end of some definition of American freedom which was , prior to this act, absolute, and after it, is gone.

It would appear largely the same before and after.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:46 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
SuiNeko wrote:
In terms of absolute freedom, you're already not free. See what happens if you decline to pay your taxes or heed a law enforcement officer.

It's hyperbolic to claim that this is the end of some definition of American freedom which was , prior to this act, absolute, and after it, is gone.

It would appear largely the same before and after.


I would disagree. That idea of freedom is written in The Constitution. It specifically spells out the modes by which Government may "abridge" naturally existing freedoms by granting it the power by which to do things collectively, in very specific instances.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:08 am
Posts: 6465
Location: The Lab
Next up, we'll all be driving the Government Motors version of the "Volkswagen" (peoples car)....

I can't wait!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:05 pm 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
Midgen, since that car would be for the average American, a concept the government has no clue about, we probably wouldn't fit into the car. We would still have to buy it, it just wouldn't serve our needs.

Hmm, all of a sudden your analogy makes sense.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:08 am
Posts: 6465
Location: The Lab
Yes, no doubt, the new version would undoubtedly be made to be completely useless for the average Amrikan, in favor of appeasing the greenies...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:04 pm 
Offline
Has a plan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
Posts: 1584
If this legislation had anything to do about providing healthcare it would look nothing like it does. This is an outright power grab, and thats the only bipartisan aspect of it.

For a fraction of this monstrosity a company could have been funded to provide the competition, but of course that would mean the state restrictions on buying healthcare would have to be lifted.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Midgen wrote:
Next up, we'll all be driving the Government Motors version of the "Volkswagen" (peoples car)....

I can't wait!!!

I was actually commenting to DFK! that I wished I knew what Hopwin drove in order to more adequately respond to him in another thread (I think it was the one about Germany and Russia getting upset that GM decided not to spin off one of its European subsidiaries), where he indicated that, as a "stockholder" through the government, he wanted social considerations in deciding the actions of GM in addition to purely fiscal ones to make a return on his "investment." Had I known that he drove and enjoyed his truck or SUV or a gas-guzzling "sporty" car (as I do, for instance, with Müs and Sean, among others), it would have been a relevant point to make that ensuring our economic independence and "green-ness" by stopping production of all lines of cars except for Smart Car competitors and perhaps a 4-door equivalent is the sort of business decision he's suggesting.

Not knowing Hopwin's choice of car, however, this seemed like a shot in the dark, so I didn't make it at the time.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:51 pm 
Offline
Has a plan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
Posts: 1584
Id be happy if they brought the vehicles that made the big 3 profitable in the EU here to the US. Standardize the ratings for diesel fuel and bring em over! They already meet or exceed any benchmark currently being proposed for vehicles.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:09 pm 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Stossel on the topic:

http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/12/t ... umptuous-m

Quote:
The U.S. House of Presumptuous Meddlers
The folly of health care "reform"
John Stossel | November 12, 2009

As an American, I am embarrassed that the U.S. House of Representatives has 220 members who actually believe the government can successfully centrally plan the medical and insurance industries.

I'm embarrassed that my representatives think that government can subsidize the consumption of medical care without increasing the budget deficit or interfering with free choice.

It's a triumph of mindless wishful thinking over logic and experience.

The 1,990-page bill is breathtaking in its bone-headed audacity. The notion that a small group of politicians can know enough to design something so complex and so personal is astounding. That they were advised by "experts" means nothing since no one is expert enough to do that. There are too many tradeoffs faced by unique individuals with infinitely varying needs.

Government cannot do simple things efficiently. The bureaucrats struggle to count votes correctly. They give subsidized loans to "homeowners" who turn out to be 4-year-olds. Yet congressmen want government to manage our medicine and insurance.

Competition is a "discovery procedure," Nobel-prize-winning economist F. A. Hayek taught. Through the competitive market process, we producers and consumers constantly learn things that force us to adjust our behavior if we are to succeed. Central planners fail for two reasons:

First, knowledge about supply, demand, individual preferences and resource availability is scattered—much of it never articulated—throughout society. It is not concentrated in a database where a group of planners can access it.

Second, this "data" is dynamic: It changes without notice.

No matter how honorable the central planners' intentions, they will fail because they cannot know the needs and wishes of 300 million different people. And if they somehow did know their needs, they wouldn't know them tomorrow.

Proponents of so-called reform—it's not really reform unless it makes things better—have shamefully avoided criticism of their proposals. Often they just dismiss their opponents as greedy corporate apologists or paranoid right-wing loonies. That's easier than answering questions like these:

1) How can the government subsidize the purchase of medical services without driving up prices? Econ 101 teaches—without controversy—that when demand goes up, if other things remain equal, price goes up. The politicians want to have their cake and eat it, too.

2) How can the government promise lower medical costs without restricting choices? Medicare already does that. Once the planners' mandatory insurance pushes prices to new heights, they must put even tougher limits on what we may buy—or their budget will be even deeper in the red than it already is. As economist Thomas Sowell points out, government cannot really reduce costs. All it can do is disguise and shift costs (through taxation) and refuse to pay for some services (rationing).

3) How does government "create choice" by imposing uniformity on insurers? Uniformity limits choice. Under House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's bill and the Senate versions, government would dictate to all insurers what their "minimum" coverage policy must include. Truly basic high-deductible, low-cost catastrophic policies tailored to individual needs would be forbidden.

4) How does it "create choice" by making insurance companies compete against a privileged government-sponsored program? The so-called government option, let's call it Fannie Med, would have implicit government backing and therefore little market discipline. The resulting environment of conformity and government power is not what I mean by choice and competition. Rep. Barney Frank is at least honest enough to say that the public option will bring us a government monopoly.

Advocates of government control want you to believe that the serious shortcomings of our medical and insurance system are failures of the free market. But that's impossible because our market is not free. Each state operates a cozy medical and insurance cartel that restricts competition through licensing and keeps prices higher than they would be in a genuine free market. But the planners won't talk about that. After all, if government is the problem in the first place, how can they justify a government takeover?

Many people are priced out of the medical and insurance markets for one reason: the politicians' refusal to give up power. Allowing them to seize another 16 percent of the economy won't solve our problems.

Freedom will.

John Stossel will soon host Stossel on the Fox Business Network. He's the author of Give Me a Break and of Myth, Lies, and Downright Stupidity.

COPYRIGHT 2009 BY JFS PRODUCTIONS, INC.
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
Public health care isn't about equality, it's about forcing the people who have money to pay double what they pay now so the less fortunate can have health insurance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:49 am
Posts: 2410
DFK! wrote:
Stossel on the topic:

http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/12/t ... umptuous-m

Quote:
The U.S. House of Presumptuous Meddlers
The folly of health care "reform"
John Stossel | November 12, 2009

As an American, I am embarrassed that the U.S. House of Representatives has 220 members who actually believe the government can successfully centrally plan the medical and insurance industries.


As an American, I am embarrassed the John Stossel is considered a legitimate journalist.

_________________
Image

It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:46 pm 
Offline
Deuce Master

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:45 am
Posts: 3099
Monte wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Stossel on the topic:

http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/12/t ... umptuous-m

Quote:
The U.S. House of Presumptuous Meddlers
The folly of health care "reform"
John Stossel | November 12, 2009

As an American, I am embarrassed that the U.S. House of Representatives has 220 members who actually believe the government can successfully centrally plan the medical and insurance industries.


As an American, I am embarrassed the John Stossel is considered a legitimate journalist.

Which of those points do you take issue with?

_________________
The Dude abides.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:49 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Monte wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Stossel on the topic:

http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/12/t ... umptuous-m

Quote:
The U.S. House of Presumptuous Meddlers
The folly of health care "reform"
John Stossel | November 12, 2009

As an American, I am embarrassed that the U.S. House of Representatives has 220 members who actually believe the government can successfully centrally plan the medical and insurance industries.


As an American, I am embarrassed the John Stossel is considered a legitimate journalist.


I think it's amusing your response is to attack the editorialization in the article and not the actual points he made. Is that because you have no valid rebuttal?

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:49 am
Posts: 2410
My response is to attack John Stossel, because he's an idiot, but really more so to sit back and laugh that we actually give him the time of day when it comes to journalism.

Each to his own. As a freedom-hating commie in disguise supporter of universal health care, I'm really not his target audience. :P

_________________
Image

It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 172 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 56 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group