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List of handgun owners article
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Author:  Nitefox [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  List of handgun owners article

I'm assuming a lot of you have heard about the newspaper in NY state that listed the address's of a number of private citizens who own guns in their newspaper. Here's an article about some of the fallout from that.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer ... ercussions


Quote:
New York Newspaper's Gun Permit Map Already Having Negative Repercussions


Many of those who expressed outrage at the publication of a two-county interactive map of pistol permit owners by Gannett's White Plains, New York-based Journal News just before Christmas have raised serious concerns that the paper's action would directly harm law-abiding citizens. Evidence is pouring in that those fears are legitimate.

Fox News, doing something the wire services should have been begun within days of the map's publication, has unsurprisingly found that "Reformed crooks say the New York newspaper ... did a great service – to their old cronies in the burglary trade." Additionally, a Newsday report identifies four concrete examples of negative impact: "Inmates are taunting corrections officers" at an area jail; one of the counties' sheriffs says that it's "hurting law enforcement as a whole"; a Rockland County Democratic legislator who currently doesn't own a gun says "he now fears for his safety" and will get one; and a divorced woman who says her ex-husband tried to strangle her is worried that "now he can find me." Excerpts from the two news reports follow the jump.

The Fox News report contains testimonials from reformed criminals affirming what critics have contended from the start, namely that the map's publication has great potential to harm gun owners and non-owners alike (bolds are mine throughout this post):

... The information published online by the Journal-News, a daily paper serving the New York suburbs of Westchester, Rockland and Putnam counties, could be highly useful to thieves in two ways, former burglars told FoxNews.com. Crooks looking to avoid getting shot now know which targets are soft and those who need weapons know where they can steal them.

“That was the most asinine article I’ve ever seen,” said Walter T. Shaw, 65, a former burglar and jewel thief who the FBI blames for more than 3,000 break-ins that netted some $70 million in the 1960s and 1970s. “Having a list of who has a gun is like gold - why rob that house when you can hit the one next door, where there are no guns?

"What they did was insanity," added Shaw, author of "License to Steal," a book about his criminal career.

... “They just created an opportunity for some crimes to be committed and I think it’s exceptionally stupid,” said Bob Portenier, 65, a former burglar and armed house robber turned crime prevention consultant.

Professional burglars are always looking for an edge, and like most folks, they read the paper, said Portenier.

... While some burglars may use the newspaper’s information to avoid guns, Portenier said others will target homes with guns. The newspaper’s decision could even lead to legally-owned guns proliferating on the street, he said.

“That’s one of the first things we’d check out—guns are on the top of the list of what you want to steal,” he said. “They can walk out with a shotgun and a couple of handguns and sell them on the street for $300 or $400 a pop. They can sell them to a gangbanger who ends up killing someone.” (Portenier seems to believe that the map identifies specific guns owned, which it doesn't; nevertheless, his point about "legally-owned (but stolen) guns prolierating on the street" is valid. -- Ed.)

“When I first saw that story it kinda freaked me out. If I had a gun if I was a registered legal gun owner and had my information in there I’d be outraged.

Portenier isn't the only person who is "kinda freaked out." The Newsday report quotes representatives of four specific groups who have similar feelings (the italicized numeric listing within the excerpt is mine):

1. Prison guards

... Inmates at the Rockland County jail are taunting corrections officers by saying they know the guards' home addresses -- information they got from the list published by Westchester (County)-based newspaper, Rockland County Sheriff Louis Falco said.

"Since about 9:30 this morning, I've been in a meeting with my corrections officers and their unions. They have inmates coming up to them and telling them exactly where they live. That's not acceptable to me," Falco said at a news conference Friday morning in New City, where local leaders condemned the list.

2. Law enforcement in general

... Robert Riley, a White Plains police officer who is president of the department's Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, agreed that the database is putting officers' lives at risk.

"My members are outraged," Riley said, noting that the potential dangers to law enforcement extend beyond Westchester and Rockland counties.

"You have guys who work in New York City who live up here," Riley said. "Now their names and addresses are out there, too."

Falco said there are 8,000 active and retired NYPD officers currently living in Rockland County.

3. Non-permit holders

... Legis. Aron Wieder (D-Spring Valley) called the publication of the list "irresponsible journalism" and said he now fears for his safety because the map broadcast that he does not have a gun license. At the news conference Friday morning, he handed a $150 certified check and a completed pistol permit application to Rockland County Clerk Paul Piperato.

"I never owned a gun but now I have no choice," Wieder said. "I have been exposed as someone that has no gun. And I'll do anything, anything to protect my family."

4. Ex-spouses and others who were in abusive relationships.

... "When I saw the list, I had an immediate flood of emotions that I cannot even describe to you," said (Orangetown resident Charlotte) Swift. "I originally obtained a gun permit because I had previously been married to a man who attempted to strangle me . . . The first emotion I felt was, 'Oh my gosh, he can find me.'"

Heckuva job, Journal News. (/sarcasm)

Though much of the damage has obviously already been done, the Newsday article notes that law enforcement officials have called on the Journal News to take down the map. If the paper won't do it on their own, perhaps adults at Gannett, if any can be found, might demand that they do so.

It would also be fascinating to get a reaction to the two stories excerpted above from Connecticut legislator Stephen Dargan. As I noted yesterday (at NewsBusters; at BizzyBlog), Dargan wants the Nutmeg State to change its laws, which currently protect the privacy of the state's handgun permit holders, to make such information accessible via Freedom of Information Act requests -- so that anyone can do to his state what the Journal News has just done to the residents of two New York counties. How can Dargan still submit his proposed legislation in the face of mounting evidence of the harm it would cause?

Author:  Uncle Fester [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: List of handgun owners article

And then the paper hired a privated armed security firm to protect itself, disgusting people.

Author:  darksiege [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

I decided to make the mistake of reading comments on the Huffington post article... those people seem to be seriously **** crazy... saying **** like, this is what people whop support gun rights should deal with. It is fair play... nevermind the fact that LEO and CO are having families threatened, etc.

Author:  Corolinth [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: List of handgun owners article

What you don't understand is that this is precisely what gun control proponents want. I don't mean the people who come and post here, or on other forums, about how guns hurt people and it's time to consider restricting them. They're just dupes, suckers, and fools. I mean the actual policy-makers.

They know guns are a high value item for thieves. They want gun owners to be targeted and robbed, so that those guns end up on the streets. It means the gun owner no longer has it. Then, when the crime happens and the weapon is confiscated, the owner never gets it back. It doesn't matter what crime had to occur for the gun to fall into the government's hands, what matters is that it has been removed from the hands of private citizens.

Furthermore, the crimes being committed with said stolen guns are good. That's people getting hurt and killed by guns, which means we need to ban them. If a thief gets shot in the process of attempting to steal a gun to sell, that's good to. That still gets recorded as a firearm death.

Anything that drives up gun violence is good, because that gets you outraged morons screaming to have the Constitutional rights of their neighbors infringed.

Author:  Uncle Fester [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: List of handgun owners article

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism ... -Free-Fall

Well the newspaper is suffering the market concequences of its actions.

Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

Um, did you read that?

Author:  Aizle [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:36 am ]
Post subject: 

So one has to assume that this data was already publicly available. At some level it seems the core problem is why is that info was public in the first place. The actions of the paper were stupid in the extreme but this seems to be more of a privacy issue more than a media issue.

Author:  FarSky [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:45 am ]
Post subject: 

Yeah, base question: was this information available to the general public? If not, I'd say there are some charges to be filed. If so, and the newspaper just aggregated it...well, it's kind of a dick move, but there's nothing actually wrong with it.

I'm a little confused, though...the prison guard thing, for instance. Isn't address information readily available (phone book, internet, etc.)?

Author:  Hopwin [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
Yeah, base question: was this information available to the general public? If not, I'd say there are some charges to be filed. If so, and the newspaper just aggregated it...well, it's kind of a dick move, but there's nothing actually wrong with it.

I'm a little confused, though...the prison guard thing, for instance. Isn't address information readily available (phone book, internet, etc.)?

Not if you are unlisted and unless you have a very unique name, odds are there are at least 30 people with your name in the Tri-State area.

Author:  DFK! [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Aizle wrote:
So one has to assume that this data was already publicly available. At some level it seems the core problem is why is that info was public in the first place. The actions of the paper were stupid in the extreme but this seems to be more of a privacy issue more than a media issue.


In some states. Apparently in NY, the answer is yes, it is publicly available.

That said, aggregating and publishing is still likely to violate the journalistic code of ethics (not that journalists really care about that these days).

Author:  DFK! [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

Article "condemned" by local government.

http://www.lohud.com/usatoday/article/1566196



Not enough is being done to oppose these new laws and proposals.

Author:  Nitefox [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: List of handgun owners article

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/to ... rized.html

Author:  Rorinthas [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 

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Author:  FarSky [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:11 am ]
Post subject: 

Wait...I thought having a gun was supposed to make it less likely that your home was hit. Wasn't that what people are complaining about? That the list was a list telling burglars what houses weren't "protected?"

Author:  Nitefox [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
Wait...I thought having a gun was supposed to make it less likely that your home was hit. Wasn't that what people are complaining about? That the list was a list telling burglars what houses weren't "protected?"



Selling a gun on the street is very profitable so would make it worth the risk for some people.

Author:  Aizle [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
Wait...I thought having a gun was supposed to make it less likely that your home was hit. Wasn't that what people are complaining about? That the list was a list telling burglars what houses weren't "protected?"


It's only like that when it's convenient for arguing against gun control legislation. C'mon get with the program...

Author:  Nitefox [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Aizle wrote:
FarSky wrote:
Wait...I thought having a gun was supposed to make it less likely that your home was hit. Wasn't that what people are complaining about? That the list was a list telling burglars what houses weren't "protected?"


It's only like that when it's convenient for arguing against gun control legislation. C'mon get with the program...




Selling a gun on the street is very profitable so would make it worth the risk for some people.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: List of handgun owners article

There are different types of burglars. Some want to get a gun to sell, or to use for other crimes. Others want to avoid guns because they might get shot.

Either way its still foolish because while there aren't any more burglars because of the article, it now allows each individual burglar to target the kind of residence he wants to target with greater ease, and it increases the probability guns will be stolen because now a burglar wanting a gun can have a much higher likelihood of getting a house that has one in the first place. For both types of burglars, you the article removes some of the uncertainty from the crime, and eliminates some of the time burden of the pre-crime reconnaissance, thereby increasing both the opportunity for and the likelihood of success of the burglary.

So yes, it's bad either way. It is not a matter of any sort of contradiction, and it's not "only bad when it argues against gun control."

Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
Wait...I thought having a gun was supposed to make it less likely that your home was hit. Wasn't that what people are complaining about? That the list was a list telling burglars what houses weren't "protected?"


If you're sure nobody's home, it's not particularly dangerous to burglarize a house with a gun. People don't buy guns to protect their property while they are not at home. People buy guns to protect themselves and their property when they are home.

But, to answer your question (even though you already know the answer), the map has elevated the risk that guns will be stolen, but not necessarily elevated the risk to gun owners. It has elevated the risk to homeowners without guns, particularly women, in that now people that are interested in attacking PEOPLE can focus on those who are less protected.

Author:  FarSky [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

No, actually, I simply hadn't thought about it. I suppose the "guns make people safer" indoctrination worked; it literally didn't cross my mind until Nitefox brought up the alternative.

I do find it darkly humorous, however, that you have people saying "This list makes it more likely that people with guns will get robbed!" and "This list makes it more likely that people without guns will be robbed!" It kinda feels like this publicly-available information would A) have already been in use, and B) cancel itself out, thus making both gun-infused and gunless homes each the same amount of likelihood to be robbed.

Author:  Talya [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
No, actually, I simply hadn't thought about it. I suppose the "guns make people safer" indoctrination worked; it literally didn't cross my mind until Nitefox brought up the alternative.

I do find it darkly humorous, however, that you have people saying "This list makes it more likely that people with guns will get robbed!" and "This list makes it more likely that people without guns will be robbed!" It kinda feels like this publicly-available information would A) have already been in use, and B) cancel itself out, thus making both gun-infused and gunless homes each the same amount of likelihood to be robbed.



This provides more information to the would-be criminal. It provides opportunities - knowledge of which homes to avoid in cases where you want to avoid being shot; knowledge of which homes to target if you want to steal a gun. As such, publishing the list will likely result in a greater number of crimes than there would have been without the list. Information is power, and the newspaper just put a bunch of it in the hands of people who might do bad things with it. Regardless of one's position on gun control, this was a very bad idea.

Author:  FarSky [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

Publishing it in an easily-digestible format was a dick move, to be sure...but again, wasn't the information already out there for the taking? Granted, people become criminals generally because they're lazy. NY needs to change the law to keep that information private.

Author:  Rynar [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
No, actually, I simply hadn't thought about it. I suppose the "guns make people safer" indoctrination worked; it literally didn't cross my mind until Nitefox brought up the alternative.

I do find it darkly humorous, however, that you have people saying "This list makes it more likely that people with guns will get robbed!" and "This list makes it more likely that people without guns will be robbed!" It kinda feels like this publicly-available information would A) have already been in use, and B) cancel itself out, thus making both gun-infused and gunless homes each the same amount of likelihood to be robbed.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Criminals are not all interested in the same types of activity. Think of it like a supermarket flyer: If a store advertises that it is having a remarkable sale on both beef and vegetables, it is likely that more beef and more vegetables will be sold, not simply one or the other.

That's what's so incredibly stupid about this list. It litterally makes everyone less safe.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
No, actually, I simply hadn't thought about it. I suppose the "guns make people safer" indoctrination worked; it literally didn't cross my mind until Nitefox brought up the alternative.

I do find it darkly humorous, however, that you have people saying "This list makes it more likely that people with guns will get robbed!" and "This list makes it more likely that people without guns will be robbed!" It kinda feels like this publicly-available information would A) have already been in use, and B) cancel itself out, thus making both gun-infused and gunless homes each the same amount of likelihood to be robbed.


Just because information, especially raw data, is publicly available does not mean everyone in the public knows that, or wants to go to the trouble of accessing it or analyzing it. Burglars are criminals, frequently 'professional' criminals, not IT people, archivists, or often, terribly well-educated at all, and depending on exactly how one accesses this publicly-available information, they might not be all that comfortable exposing themselves in that way.

It doesn't cancel itself out because by reducing the time and difficulty 'overhead' of committing a burglary, it means more burglaries will be committed overall.

There is no "guns make people safer indoctrination" either. When people say that, there are certain underlying assumptions; one of those underlying assumptions is that the press is not going out of its way to help out the criminals. Others are things like: the average person does not turn into a raging lunatic at the first sign of disagreement just because they happen to have a gun.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

FarSky wrote:
Publishing it in an easily-digestible format was a dick move, to be sure...but again, wasn't the information already out there for the taking? Granted, people become criminals generally because they're lazy. NY needs to change the law to keep that information private.

The other problem is that the city keeps records of requests for such information. Criminals generally are loathe to leave records of their pre-burglary preparations. Now, you don't need to!

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