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Drone strikes in the US legal? https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9724 |
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Author: | Müs [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Drone strikes in the US legal? |
Holder seems to think so. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/0 ... 13857.html |
Author: | Uncle Fester [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
No no no, we would never have to use this power, it's too much, but it's too much for us to stop using it, I mean what if our own domestic enemies begin to develop drones, we could face a drone gap! |
Author: | Micheal [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:37 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Holder does not actually say it is legal. He says he believes it is legal. That small difference gives him an out if someone successfully argues against it being legal. It introduces doubt and Holder can walk away head held high admitting he thought one way and the Supremes decided another. Weasel words from the top attorney? Makes me think the case isn't shut and dried and they are waiting for someone to challenge it in court. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
Use of force against a citizen constitutes a seizure under the 4th amendment. Use of the weapons drones carry constitutes deadly force. Therefore, the fact that it's a drone is really irrelevant. If you get killed by the government, what matters are the circumstances, not the weapon used. The problem with drone weapons is that they're much more powerful than law enforcement weapons, and therefore have a much larger probability of damage or injury to bystanders. Therefore, using a drone would probably still be illegal in most circumstances because it would cause unnecessary damage and injury to anyone else in the area. Holder is weaseling by using the technical truth of the first point to ignore the second point. He's also being dishonest by using the 9/11 and the Pearl Harbor attacks as an example of an incident, totally ignoring the fact that both are attacks by outside forces. He also fails to mention that using the military to conduct these strikes would require Congressional authorization under Posse Comitatus. If there actually were a critical mass of violence so large that law enforcement couldn't contain it, then drone strikes would be acceptable, but that's because at that point it would be an insurrection, and would require Congressional authorization as well, and at that point nitpicking between drones and other military weapons is the height of focusing on the boogeyman. In either case, it wouldn't be within his purview as Attorney General to make that type of decision. Rand Paul, by asking the question in the first place about the drones, is being an idiot anyhow and drawing this stupidity from Holder. The question isn't if drones are being used inside the U.S., the question is if the military is being used in any way in violation of Posse Comitatus. Except for the National Guard under State control, the military should not be used to conduct such activities except in accordance with that law. It doesn't matter if it' a drone or a private with a rifle. |
Author: | Hannibal [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Are the agencies using the drones considered military and do they fall under posse comitis? I think the argument from the administration would be no. So yeah Paul is correctto question it. And seriously why wouldn't the answer be no. |
Author: | Müs [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Hannibal wrote: Are the agencies using the drones considered military and do they fall under posse comitis? I think the argument from the administration would be no. So yeah Paul is correctto question it. And seriously why wouldn't the answer be no. They are. AFAIK, DHS doesn't have Reapers yet. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
was gonna give this its own thread, but it probably belongs better here. Quote: Sen. Paul holds floor for hours in filibuster of CIA nominee, over drone concerns Published March 06, 2013 FoxNews.com Spoiler: Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03 ... z2MnJTog6q Before someone complains about Fox News, I went to CNN first, but they didn't have anything on it. On Filibuster: I contend its a viable tool of the minority no matter who is in power. The federal government should be doing only those things that have the broadest of consensuses (sic?). When the Republicans were in power and crying I vividly recall saying on some Glade or another that we shouldn't mess with it because there would be a day we would need it ourselves. I'm glad to be right. On drones: I'm kinda torn. I get the whole maybe someday in a worse scenario we might want to hit a US citizen on american soil with a remote aircraft. However it should be one of those rebellion or invasion marital law kind of things. The standard would have to be really really high. I'm talking about to set off a nuclear bomb and the only way to stop him is a drone kinda high. Even then I wonder couldn't you just go arrest him, and if he resists shoot him kind of thing. Heck we gave Bin-laden that courtesy. At the same time I get its a violation of how we handle guilt and innocence is this country. |
Author: | DFK! [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Müs wrote: Hannibal wrote: Are the agencies using the drones considered military and do they fall under posse comitis? I think the argument from the administration would be no. So yeah Paul is correctto question it. And seriously why wouldn't the answer be no. They are. AFAIK, DHS doesn't have Reapers yet. CIA does. Therefore, holding up the nomination of the proposed CIA director over his positions on this makes perfect sense. Particularly given that the last time a drone was used to assassinate a citizen of the United States was in CIA hands. Paul wants to know if you can use a drone to assassinate a US citizen on US soil. The argument from Holder and Brennan appears to be, "it depends." Most of us who believe in "due process" would prefer the answer to be, "no." |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
Except that isn't what Paul asked. He asked is it legal to use drones at all, whether for assassination, or for military purposes, such as quelling insurrction. Holder's examples both reflected the legality of using them in military situations, but he used examples of repelling invasion, which is irrelevant. Quote: "For example, the president could conceivably have no choice but to authorize the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland in the circumstances like a catastrophic attack like the ones suffered on December 7, 1941, and September 11, 2001," Holder continued, referring to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Holder said he would "examine the particular facts and circumstances" if such an emergency were to arise. His examples of legal use specifically reference the military using them. That can only happen under Congressional authorization under Posse Comitatus, under Congressional authorization to quell insurrection, or when repelling invasion (the last of which being what both his examples reflect). By referencing only military uses as possible legal uses that rules out the CIA completely, except for repelling invasion. Paul is being disingenuous in any case, because he's raising a stink over Holder not ruling out drones, specifically rather than assassinations in general. Holder doesn't control either the CIA or the military, and he's addressing the cases where it could be legal, rather than those where it's obviously not. Paul is focusing on the drones in order to get people like you guys riled up about the boogeyman with his Hellfire missiles. If the CIA isn't covered by Posse Comitatus, then it can't be authorized by Congress to conduct drone strikes at all, except against a foreign invader. The CIA is specifically forbidden from domestic activity. |
Author: | DFK! [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
Diamondeye wrote: Except that isn't what Paul asked. He asked is it legal to use drones at all, whether for assassination, or for military purposes, such as quelling insurrction. Holder's examples both reflected the legality of using them in military situations, but he used examples of repelling invasion, which is irrelevant. Quote: "For example, the president could conceivably have no choice but to authorize the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland in the circumstances like a catastrophic attack like the ones suffered on December 7, 1941, and September 11, 2001," Holder continued, referring to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Holder said he would "examine the particular facts and circumstances" if such an emergency were to arise. His examples of legal use specifically reference the military using them. That can only happen under Congressional authorization under Posse Comitatus, under Congressional authorization to quell insurrection, or when repelling invasion (the last of which being what both his examples reflect). By referencing only military uses as possible legal uses that rules out the CIA completely, except for repelling invasion. Paul is being disingenuous in any case, because he's raising a stink over Holder not ruling out drones, specifically rather than assassinations in general. Holder doesn't control either the CIA or the military, and he's addressing the cases where it could be legal, rather than those where it's obviously not. Paul is focusing on the drones in order to get people like you guys riled up about the boogeyman with his Hellfire missiles. If the CIA isn't covered by Posse Comitatus, then it can't be authorized by Congress to conduct drone strikes at all, except against a foreign invader. The CIA is specifically forbidden from domestic activity. 1) Paul didn't ask Holder questions. He asked Brennan questions. 2) That actually isn't what Paul asked. He asked quite a bit. Holder chose to answer only part, and that evasively. 3) The CIA can operate in the US post-9/11. http://paul.senate.gov/files/documents/Brennan1.pdf Spoiler: http://paul.senate.gov/files/documents/Brennan2.pdf Spoiler: |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
Quote: Do you believe that the prohibition on CIA participation in domestic law enforcement, first established by the National Security Act of 1947, would apply to the use of lethal force, especially lethal force directed at an individual on a targeting list, if a U.S. citizen on a targeting list was found to be operating on U.S. soil? What if the individual on the targeting list was a non-U.S. person but found to be operating on U.S. soil? Do you consider such an operation to be domestic law enforcement, or would it only be subject to the president’s wartime powers? Note that the 1947 prohibition is still in place, hence the question. CIA cannot participate in domestic law enforcement. I will also point out that the questions are disingenuous. Every one of them is phrased, essentially, as a yes or no question. They make no exception for invasions or insurrections, both of which the government is empowered and obligated to defeat with the full national military power. Hence Holder's use of examples of foreign attacks such as Pearl Harbor. If the Japanese were to invade Guam today would you seriously suggest that the government could not use drones in repelling them because it is U.S. soil? These men are politicians. They know exactly how to play the game to ask disingenuous questions in order to create a panic over nothing if it will energize people who support them. The fact that Holder is a fool and taking the bait, and gives irrelevant answers because he's also a politician does not change that. The drone boogeyman is not coming to get you. |
Author: | Müs [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
Diamondeye wrote: If the Japanese were to invade Guam today would you seriously suggest that the government could not use drones in repelling them because it is U.S. soil? No, because we would be using the drones against invading Japanese nationals. This is about using drones on US nationals absent proper due process. I don't think it is likely to happen either, but with this government... one never knows. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
One knows. It is not going to happen with this government. This is pure fantasy wanking. It is fashionable for people to act like tyranny and ruin are just around the corner these days. Note that the Senators made no exception for foreign military in their questions. That was intentional; they knew Holder would have to qualify his answer to include the obvious, but they asked "yes" or "no" anyhow. People need to stop worrying about tyranny. If it comes from somewhere, it's going to come from people giving up their rights because of the hystrionic morons arguing that every little thing is an infringement. If your freedom were in real danger this forum would be dead because everyone would be afraid to comment on anything. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Paul Mentions that he's talking about US citizens several times in his letter and in various remarks. |
Author: | DFK! [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Rorinthas wrote: Paul Mentions that he's talking about US citizens several times in his letter and in various remarks. Specifically that he's talking about US citizens on US soil who are not engaged in attacks on the US and are not an "imminent" threat. |
Author: | Müs [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Its really simple. Since the White House won't deny that they'll use drones on citizens in the US, it means they're reserving the right to actually use drones on citizens in the US. And Holder is making it worse by saying "Yeah, its legal. Sure. We can totally do that" To make it go away, all they have to do is say "No, drone strikes against the US populace would be unconstitutional, and we would never even consider such a thing. Especially in light of Posse Comitatus and Due Process. Drones against citizens on US soil are completely off the table" Done. But they won't do that. Why? |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Müs wrote: But they won't do that. Why? It's not even that they won't do that. It's that they're willing to suffer headline news (on every major site except CNN, lol) bringing this whole thing to the public's eye rather than do that. Paul has made it clear -- he's not trying to block a vote on the nomination. His filibuster will end the moment Holder commits, in writing, NOT to do this. A one or two sentence statement, signed, and this is all over and could've been swept under the rug by the media. |
Author: | Aizle [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... ?hpt=hp_t2 Quote: Attorney General Eric Holder says the president does not have the authority to use a drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on U.S. soil, according to a letter he addressed to Sen. Rand Paul on Thursday.
"It has come to my attention that you have now asked an additional question: 'Does the President have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil?' The answer to that question is no," the letter states. |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
About freaking time. |
Author: | Aizle [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Müs wrote: About freaking time. Seriously, the administration has better things to do with their time than pander to the tinfoil hat fears of the opposition party. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Drone strikes in the US legal? |
Aizle wrote: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/03/07/obama-administration-responds-to-paul-on-drones/?hpt=hp_t2 Quote: Attorney General Eric Holder says the president does not have the authority to use a drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on U.S. soil, according to a letter he addressed to Sen. Rand Paul on Thursday. "It has come to my attention that you have now asked an additional question: 'Does the President have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil?' The answer to that question is no," the letter states. Props to Rand Paul for forcing a position. |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Aizle wrote: Müs wrote: About freaking time. Seriously, the administration has better things to do with their time than pander to the tinfoil hat fears of the opposition party. Clearly they don't. Cause they could have resolved this in about an hour. Or less. A month ago. But they decided to hem and haw and prevaricate and make themselves look like they're hiding something. Whether or not they are, that's the appearance. |
Author: | darksiege [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Aizle wrote: Seriously, the administration has better things to do with their time than pander to the tinfoil hat fears of the opposition party. What is so tinfoil hate fear about the Attorney General of the United States saying something tantamount to "**** your 5th, 6th and 14th Amendment Rights" and people wanting an explanation? Please since you are so unbiased and have proven time and time again to look at things without a preconceived opinion... tell us how that is pandering? Yes I am a cock, this is nothing new... it really isn't |
Author: | Corolinth [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Because ignoring civil rights is something George W. Bush would do. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize for not being George W. Bush. |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
It was all a dog and pony show anyway to divert attention from the Sequester. |
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