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Originalism and Changing Circumstances https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9776 |
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Author: | RangerDave [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
Posted without comment. I just think it's interesting and timely: At today’s Proposition 8 oral argument, Justice Scalia asked Ted Olson, the lawyer for the plaintiffs, “when did it become unconstitutional to exclude homosexual couples from marriage? 1791? 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted?” The intuition behind Scalia’s question is that if a law would not have been unconstitutional on the day the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, it cannot be unconstitutional under that Amendment at all.
But the latter doesn’t necessarily follow from the former. Laws that are constitutional at Time X can easily be unconstitutional at Time Y if relevant factual circumstances have changed. This is true not only under “living Constitution” theories, but even under originalism. [Remainder of article spoilered for length (though it's not really TLDR territory).] Spoiler: |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
And Ilya Somin continues to demonstrate a woefully inaccurate understanding of the word 'gender'. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
I don't see homosexuals being excluded. I know that having the opinion that there's already equal protection under the law isn't popular here, but that's how I see it. My sister and I are equally protected in our right to bear arms. I chose to exercise that right, she doesn't, but that doesn't mean she's excluded, and she can't just go redefining what "arms" are to include a hand grenade if that's how she's inclined. Now, my opinion really doesn't matter. I've become a grandfather not too long ago and my views on life have changed radically. Used to be, I had to fight to get what was right to make the world make sense to me. Then later, I had to fight to get what's right for a world my kids could grow in, to make sense for them. I don't have to fight anymore, I got all I need. It's the next generations turn. Let my sons and daughter fight to shape their world for them and their kids, I'll be just fine. So if folks want to allow homosexual marriage, or polygamy, or whatever, you just go right ahead. |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
Taskiss wrote: ... and she can't just go redefining what "arms" are to include a hand grenade if that's how she's inclined. It already includes hand grenades; the people running around willy-nilly trying to redefine the word "arms" (as in "armaments"), well ...
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Author: | Lenas [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - T. Jefferson |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
Lenas: Unfortunately, taking Jefferson out of context provides just as many examples of statements the other way. But, I wonder, what has all this anti-gun rhetoric really done for us? Evidence suggests it created easy target zones. |
Author: | Lenas [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
I think the comment holds weight regardless of context. From gun laws to sexuality. |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
Lenas wrote: I think the comment holds weight regardless of context. From gun laws to sexuality. I'm not sure Jefferson would agree with you there ...Quote: Every so often the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants. The Second Amendment didn't really have any holdouts, and the vast majority of our Navy was privately owned for a very long time.
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Author: | Lenas [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
I'm not saying I agree with everything the guy ever said. I do think it's interesting that it was written by someone who helped form our constitution, but I think the idea would hold the same weight said by anyone else, with or without context. We cannot forever hold ourselves to the thoughts and ideology of those that came before us. There has to be room for change on a group level, as the individual makeup of the group itself changes. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Again Homosexuals have equal access to marriage as marriage is defined, therefore even if homosexuals are a protected class, it wouldn't apply. Also I think the terms male and female still mean what they've always meant in a biological sense as well. They should be subject to equal protection under the law (see paragraph 1), but that does not make them the same thing. Should society promote marriage through tax breaks, preferred status, etc is a separate issue, unrelated to equal protection under the law. Personally I would say yes it produces the best and most conducive environment for child rearing. However I'd be happy with limiting that to the state/local level. |
Author: | Aizle [ Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Rorinthas wrote: Personally I would say yes it produces the best and most conducive environment for child rearing. This position is not supported by, you know, facts. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I disagree, but its not my job to write research papers for you. I think children being raised by their mother and father under one roof is best for them, and there is research to support that (again see sentence one). Maybe supporting marriage isn't the best way to do that, but what would you propose. |
Author: | NephyrS [ Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
And there is additional research showing that it's being raised by two parents that is best for children, and it doesn't effect matters at all if it's two mothers, two fathers, or one mother and one father. And you could also argue that every gay couple that has children really, truly wanted them, as opposed to "normal" couples to whom they might have been complete accidents, happy or unhappy. And I think we could all agree that being raised by two parents who wanted them is better than being raised by two parents who didn't, right? |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:14 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Sure. I would think that the majority of "accidents" happen to couples who aren't married. I would still argue that being raised by your own parents who are committed to each other is "best," but there are a lot of degrees between that. Again I see the argument for that being not the business of the federal government. I'd be very happy with something like the Fair Tax at the federal level. |
Author: | Talya [ Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:53 am ] |
Post subject: | |
The main issues are stability. Studies have shown that children from stable two-parent families fare better than children from single-parent families or families that break up. There is no question that same-sex relationships are historically less stable than heterosexual married relationships. Of course, you have to wonder about cause and effect. The fact that so many societies refuse to recognize same-sex relationships as just as legitimate as heterosexual relationships takes its toll on those relationships. It is emotionally draining and incredibly difficult to deal with constant prejudice. Despite that prejudice, it is remarkable that in cases where the stability is there, children in stable families fair equally well regardless of the makeup of that family. |
Author: | Corolinth [ Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:57 am ] |
Post subject: | |
That's just pro-gay propaganda someone told you to support your immoral lifestyle. |
Author: | Mookhow [ Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Originalism and Changing Circumstances |
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/ ... riage.aspx Quote: Research has shown that marriage provides substantial psychological and physical health benefits due to the moral, economic and social support extended to married couples. Conversely, recent empirical evidence has illustrated the harmful psychological effect of policies restricting marriage rights for same-sex couples. Additionally, children raised by same-sex couples have been shown to be on par with the children of opposite-sex couples in their psychological adjustment, cognitive abilities and social functioning.
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Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Rorinthas wrote: Should society promote marriage through tax breaks, preferred status, etc is a separate issue, unrelated to equal protection under the law. Personally I would say yes it produces the best and most conducive environment for child rearing. However I'd be happy with limiting that to the state/local level. Then, clearly, all childless couples and empty nesters are exploiting tax loopholes that need to be closed. This is why I think the government should butt out of marriage entirely and not recognize it at all. If the goal is to promote stable, two-parent family units, then we need to recognize child-rearing tax breaks for cohabiting adults filing together. If we want to promote cohabitation as a blanket rule (because it's economically and ecologically more efficient.. green, if you will), then roommates and communal arrangements need to be extended the tax incentives, as well, and romantic entanglement/sexual orientation needs to be taken out of the equation. If we want to lubricate the bureaucratic process for things like inheritance, medical visitation/decision-making, etc., then limiting it to romantic partners is likewise discriminatory against singles (and, in addition, automatically granting it to romantic/domestic partners probably troublesome in some circumstances, e.g. domestic abuse). I've never been married, but I'd give all my "married benefits" in regards to visitation and medical power of attorney to my brother in a heartbeat. In fact, I've done so for most of it (though I imagine hospital policies on visitation and whatnot would still not grant him the flexibility they would for a spouse), via an avenue that was trivially expensive and relatively hassle-free, and open to gays in a committed relationship. Etc. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:07 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Or we could just have a flat tax and collect revenue as opposed to saying anything about any behaviors. I'd be down with that. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:22 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Yep. |
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