The Glade 4.0

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/ ... tml?hpt=C2





It will be interesting to see the results.

What happens when people with principles and no guns face off against those with guns and no principles?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Depends on how the rest of society reacts. Non-violence in the US civil rights movement didn't succeed because the white supremacists had a change of heart; it succeeded because the rest of the country went, "WTF is going on?! Hey Bull, cut that sh*t out, right now!" when they saw what was happening. On the other hand, non-violence didn't work out so well for the Jews in 1930s Germany largely because most of the German public was pretty much ok with what the Nazis had in mind.

That depends....

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

This sounds like the children's crusades of Medieval Europe...

I suppose their uniforms will have a lot to do with it.

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They're all gonna get raped and dead.

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Holy shitsnacks!

I hate to say it, but maybe these women being savaged by these animals will finally cause enough outrage. The worst thing the cartels can do is have the violence extend to "regular" people. Perception being that govt officals and soldiers dying is somewhat acceptable in the situation.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

They recently found somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 "regular" people murdered on a ranch out there. The people are terrified and can't help themselves.

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I'm sure they are terrified, but I have a hard time accepting they can't help themselves. This issue didn't develop overnight, its the inevitable result of their population accepting certain behaviors. Not all at once, its a slow death of a thousand cuts. Drug running is ok because we are sending it to someone else. Jumping the boarder and invading the US is ok cause they tolerate it. Drug cartels are ok cause they give us money to operate and we benefit from their activities. We allowed the government to disarm us. We allowed the goverment to run unchecked and with open corruption.... and the list goes on.

TL;DR: I can't believe that there are as many sheep as reported, there have to be some sheepdogs left in Mexico. Or the next time I hear about machismo I'm gonna ***** them.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

I think it is more a matter of who is better armed. A collection of multi-billion dollar cartels and their mercenaries or an entire population that lives in poverty, filth and squallor.

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Even the Mexican army cannot beat the drug cartels in a straight up fight. How are the citizens going to do it?

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

This is the Mexican Army we're talking about ...

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The Mexican Army supplies the drug cartel - who do you think pays better?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

The Mexican Army could beat the Cartels easily in a straight up fight. The Cartels just don't fight straight-up. They fight like insurgents. Even when they do engage in a gun battle, they do it with an element they know they can beat.

I wouldn't put a lot of money on the Mexican Army developing tactics to deal with this, either.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Individually, its not a matter of the people being sheep or unable to help themselves. You're absolutely right that they have tolerated too much for too long and created this situation while blaming it on someone else.

That said, the Cartels are already organized. The people need someone honest, with good leadership skills, and who is actually competant to deal with th Cartels to take charge. People with all three are going to be scarce to begin with, and with the current situation getting them to step forward and then survive long enough to do much of anything is.. unlikely. There's also the problem that if they aren't already a government official, the government is going to take issue with anything effective they can do, too.

Without that, individuals, even if they aren't really "sheep" are going to keep their heads down. You can be a fierce fighter on your own but qan organized, motivated enemy is going to eat an individual for lunch, even a whole lot of individuals who can't effectively work together.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

At this point, I think there are only two ways to beat the cartels: a decade of counter-insurgency involving lots of deaths, abuses, government-sponsored paramilitary groups, etc. - a la Columbia - or drug legalization in the US. Obviously, I prefer the latter.

Drug legalization isn't going to beat the Cartels. They'll just move into other avenues. This idea that if we legalize drugs that *poof* everything will be fine is wishful thinking and oversimplification of a complex issue of the worst sort. It sounds easy, but it will just create a host of new problems.

At best, all the Cartels will become legitimate narcotics companies if these countries all legalize drug trading as well. Then they'll just ship their problems north in the form of an assload of new addicts robbing liquor stores and the like. They probably won't be content with legitimate income either, so the kidnapping and human trafficking industry will become the new drug trade.

We don't need any decade-long campaign against the Cartels. Selected airstrikes on haciendas ought to reighn them in pretty fast. These are buisnessmen who want to live the good life, not fanatics seeking to please Allah. They have to make a profit, not just cause damage to the infidel.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

This, unfortunately.

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The Dude abides.

I have heard that 90% of the profits of the cartels is from marijuana sales. Don't know if this is true. However, MJ is very easy to grow locally and allowing this would very likely reduce the cost effectiveness of shipping from overseas.

Airstrikes are a bad idea. It may work, but I currently have very little appetite to see large housing complexes bombed. Furthermore, I don't think it would really work. If we kill a few leaders, it will just be spread out, and go more underground. Then there's the issue of intelligence - is this the right guy? It'll get messy fast. We need to exhaust other avenues prior to jumping to a bombing campaign.

As far as illegal cartels go, I'd like to see them "more underground". They're too damn out in the open, what with all the murders and such.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Drug cartels are basically giant logistics operations. If you drive them underground then they lose their networks and what is essentially the economy of scale afforded by their operations. The drug price would soar as inbound shipments would fall off dramatically.

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Ok, I agree. What happens when prices of an item soar? Can you think of a time when a high-price product was abandoned because it was dangerous to ship?

If that were the case it would already reduce the cost effectiveness of shipping it from overseas. People already grow marijuana here regularly.



Who said anything about large housing complexes? I'm talking about haciendas populated by the top dogs. If it goes more underground.. that's an improvement. It at least makes it harder to attack Mexican authorities. There's also the fact that these are, again, businessmen. Being underground is not a long-term acceptable solution if you want to use your profits to live the good life.

I'm not too concerned about intel or the "right guy" either. That's part of how we prolong wars as it is, trying to pretend we give a **** about collateral damage. Obviously we shouldn't sling bombs about willy-nilly, but if e have a good idea of he target we should hit it.

In any case, there's no need to pursue other avenues or a bombing campaign. As long as they keep the violence on their side of the line, fine. Bring it over here and they need to be smashed immediately.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Why does it need to be abandoned? There's no reason we should avoid a course of action because it doesn't give perfect results. The idea is to improve the situation. A complete solution is almost certainly impossible.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Not getting your point. The fact that people grow it here surely reduces prices already. You don't think it does?



It is my understanding that these haciendas are not solitary structures in remote areas. They are complexes with several families. This includes children.



Depends. While I think operations would be temporarily disrupted, chaos within the cartels would increase violence (struggle for new leadership and territory), and could make it more difficult to gain intel on what's going on. Driving it underground would have some benefits, and some costs. I'm not convinced it would reduce attacks on Mexican authorities.



Their entire business is already at least partially underground. If you give them a choice - profitable business underground or no business above ground without getting bombed, then they'll move underground. You'll kill a few bosses, they'll restructure, and you're back at square one.



And that's a bad idea. Mexican civilians are having enough trouble as it is without having to worry about US collateral damage.



Ok, I agree with this. But... "smashed immediately" is not as easy as you are making it sound. To do what you want to do would require troops. No more of this "playing at war" **** by throwing some bombs around, patting ourselves on the back, and going home.