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 Post subject: US on Trial the UN
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:24 am 
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Yes, the Us going before the UN human Right's council. Such moral luminaries such as China, Cuba, Libya, and Saudi Arabia. Bush was right to ignore this even more loathsome pit of the UN then usual.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/11/04 ... latestnews

Spoiler:
When the United Nations Human Rights Council, a conclave of 47 nations that includes such notorious human rights violators as China, Cuba, Libya and Saudi Arabia, meets in Geneva on Friday, its attentions will be focused on the human rights failings of a country called the United States.

It will hear, among other things, that the U.S. discriminates against Muslims, that its police are barbaric and that it has been holding political prisoners behind bars for years.

Those allegations, and many more, will come from Americans themselves — especially from a stridently critical network of U.S. organizations whose input dominates the U.N. digest of submissions from “civil society” that are part of the council’s background reading.

Will the occasion be a teachable moment, or an anti-American circus?

That question will be hovering center-stage in Geneva, when, for the first time ever, the U.S. comes under the Human Rights Council’s microscope as part of the its centerpiece activity, the “Universal Periodic Review,” a rotating examination of the human rights failings and strong points of every country in the world, from North Korea to Norway, by the council's members.

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Already, there are signs that ill-wishers are planning to pack the line to the speaker’s podium, with complaints from some Western human rights organizations that Cuba, Venezuela and Iran are seeking to “hijack” the microphone and stack the speaker’s list with U.S. critics.

But what really is under review is the gamble by the Obama administration to join the council in the first place, rather than shun it in disdain, as the Bush administration did, along with its predecessor, the U.N. Human Rights Commission, because of its roster of despotic members and unbridled antagonism toward Israel.

The Universal Periodic Review, in which all countries great and small submit to human rights commentary by their peers, is supposed to help install the principle of observing human rights in the farthest reaches of the international community.

But it also has the potential to be a one-sided fiasco, along the lines of such previous toxic human rights extravaganzas as the U.N.’s 2001 “World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance,” and its 2006 follow-up, which turned into orgies of anti-Israeli posturing and helped to lead to the previous U.N. Human Rights Commission crackup.

So who is supposed to benefit from the U.S. submission to the UPR process?

According to Jim Kelly, director of international affairs for the Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies and founder of a blog called Global Governance Watch, the main beneficiaries are likely to be the interest groups that take part in the exercise. “The fact is, they are demanding that the U.S. comply with rights that are already addressed by our own democratic system and laws,” he argues. “They are simply trying to get us to adopt U.N. standards instead of our own. It’s not as if by our participating in the human rights process Cuba is going to clean up its act.”

But according to the U.S. State Department, which is leading a delegation of high-level American diplomats and government officials to Geneva, the Periodic Review is a major opportunity for Washington to lead the rest of the world by example.

“Our taking the process seriously contributes to the universality” of the human rights process, one State Department official told Fox News. “It’s an important opportunity for us to showcase our willingness to expose ourselves in a transparent way” to human rights criticism.

“For us, upholding the process is very important.”

The same official, however, declared that the “most important” part of the process is “the dialogue with our own citizens.”

That was a reference to the important—and often harshly critical—role being played in the U.S. Universal Periodical Review by American human rights interest groups, or Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs), also known in U.N. parlance as “stakeholders.”

The Obama administration has gone to elaborate lengths to consult with such groups in advance of the Geneva meeting. The State Department, has led delegations from a variety of government departments (including Labor, Homeland Security, Education and Justice) to consult with such groups in Chicago, Detroit, San Francisco, Harlem, and Albuquerque, according to an official at State.

Those NGOs will also get a chance to “engage” with the U.S. delegation in Geneva at what the State Department calls a “first ever town hall meeting,” after the Human Rights Council, composed of national governments, makes its views known. “Many countries stack the room with NGOs that are government controlled,” the State Department official told Fox News, adding that the U.S. obviously doesn’t.

“We hope that the Periodic Review process will be one that sheds new light on issues,” the official added, including “what we learn from our own NGOs, which we take seriously.”

How seriously the NGOs should be taken is indeed, an important part of the question surrounding the human rights tableau in Geneva. For one thing, 103 submissions by those NGOS about U.S. human rights practices—very broadly defined—are already included in the official documentation of the Universal Periodic Review itself. Presumably, they may be cited by the many countries—friendly or otherwise—that line up at the podium for the nations-only Human Rights Council session.

In that sense, their contents provide a kind of rough road map to the rhetoric that the U.S. may face in the days—and even years—ahead, because the Universal Periodic Review process will be repeated indefinitely into the future, and is supposed to analyze progress from session to session.

According to a dense summary of the submissions circulated by the U.N. in advance of the November 5 meeting, the NGOs offering briefs for this Review run a familiar gamut from the American Bar Association and British-based Amnesty International to such specialized groups as the Navajo Nation Human Rights Commission.

They also include an array of submissions from college legal faculties and their advocacy offshoots; environmental coalitions; and a smattering of other non-American organizations such as the Federation of Cuban Women, based in the Castro dictatorship. (The women’s group objects on human rights grounds to the U.S. embargo against Cuba.)

Even relatively conservative and centrist organizations are represented in submissions by the Heritage Foundation, the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute, and the Beckett Fund for Religious Liberty.

Yet despite their apparent diversity, many of the submissions, as summarized briefly in the U.N. document, point to a number of common themes:

--The U.S. needs to sign, ratify and implement a wide number of United Nations-sponsored human rights conventions, whatever reservations various U.S. governments or courts have had to them;

-- All these treaties and conventions should be “self-executing,” meaning that no subsequent U.S. government action should be required for them to go into effect—regardless of the U.S. constitutional separation of powers, and the separation of powers between federal and state governments;

--the U.S. should have national human rights institutions to coordinate and enforce human rights compliance;

--racial, economic and social disparities are still endemic in the U.S. despite its own civil rights laws, and need to be eliminated to meet “international standards” embodied in U.N. treaties. Amnesty International, for example, charges that “racial disparities continue to exist at every stage [U.S.] in the criminal justice system,” and calls for laws to bar “racial profiling in law enforcement.”

The Center for Human Rights and Global Justice, an offshoot of New York University’s law school, goes further, and argues that since 9/11, “the U.S. has institutionalized discriminatory profiling against members of Muslim, Arab, South Asian and Middle-Eastern communities.” The organization calls for federal laws against profiling “on all grounds, with no exceptions for national security and an in-depth audit of government databases/watchlists.”

--barbaric treatment of citizens by U.S. police is allegedly rife. Again according to Amnesty, U.S. police and custody officials “are rarely prosecuted for abuses,” prison conditions “remain harsh in many states,” and “electroshock weapons are widely used against individuals who do not pose a serious threat, including children, the elderly and people under the influence of drink or drugs.”

--U.S. social conditions are dismal. One submission claims, according to the U.N. summary, that 30% of the U.S. population “lacks an adequate income to meet basic needs,” while another notes that “there is an unequal access in the U.S. to basic amenities such as adequate food, shelter, work, healthcare and education. There is also a lack of affordable housing, job shortages and income insecurity, particularly among minorities and women.”

-- native peoples on American soil are badly neglected and need the protection of international treaties, and the U.S. treats immigrants and asylum-seekers badly. At least one organization recommends a ban on deporting indigenous peoples from anywhere in the Americas.

The sheer welter and volume of accusations, recriminations and prescriptions aimed at the U.S. that are embedded in the U.N. summary, however, obscures one important fact—an extraordinary number of them, Fox News has discovered, come from just a single source out of the 103 submissions cited in the U.N. document.

Indeed, no fewer than 60 of 162 footnote citations in the summary—37 percent of the entire total-- refer to a back-up document from a single organization, known as the U.S. Human Rights Network, or USHRN.

The 60 footnotes often cite other submissions as well, but no other organization contributing in the Human Rights Council summary comes close to USHRN as a source for accusations against U.S. behavior. (The energetic Amnesty International, by contrast, finishes in second place with just 23 footnote citations.)

Which raises the question: what, exactly, is the U.S. Human Rights Network?

According to its 423-page submission to the Geneva meeting—actually, 23 separate position papers bound together with a 15 page “overarching report,” or executive summary, USHRN was formed in 2003 as a “new model for U.S.-based human rights advocacy.”

Its intention is to “raise awareness of the human rights network within the broader social justice movement, to create linkages between traditional human rights and social justice organizations, and to facilitate sharing of information and resources among a broader network of activists.”

USHNR’s website is a little more specific: it is an agglomeration of nearly 300 activist organizations whose ultimate aim, “full U.S. compliance with universal human rights standards—will require the development of a broad-based, democratic movement that is dedicated to the long-term goal of transforming U.S. political culture.”

Funding for the network and its Geneva submission apparently comes from the Human Rights Fund, an umbrella group whose steering committee of philanthropies include the Ford Foundation, George Soros’ Open Society Institute, the Overbrook Foundation and an anonymous donor.

Among the network’s membership are some prominent and familiar organizations: the American Friends Service Committee, Fordham University Law Center, the left-leaning Institute for Policy Studies, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, the Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights.

But most of USHNR’s members are a hodge-podge of relatively unknown and local organizations, like the St. Louis-based Organization for Black Struggle, the Progressive Action Alliance (“a group of progressives in the southeast Texas area”), the National Day Laborer Organizing Network, and many more.

Some of them are also apparently non-American, like Rebuild Green, whose own website is entirely in German.

What they apparently share, according to their mammoth Human Rights Council submission, is a militant vision of the U.S. as a malignant force. “In the years since UNHRN’s inception,” the document declares, “constitutional protections for U.S. citizens and non-citizens have diminished, economic conditions for working and poor people in the U.S. have deteriorated, and repression has increased.”

Several of the position papers included in the submission are a lot more militant than that, and also seem to emerge from some radical left-wing time tunnel. One of the papers, entitled “Political Repression—Political Prisoners,” harks back to the 1970s to indict the FBI through Operation COINTELPRO for “maiming, murdering, false prosecutions and frame-ups, destruction and mayhem throughout the country.”

It cites the Feds for targeting such far-left organizations as the Puerto Rican Independence Front, the Black Panther Party, the Weather Underground, the American Indian Movement, the Black Liberation Army, as well as “peace activists and everyone in between,” and says that “many of today’s political prisoners” in the U.S. were jailed indefinitely as a result. That repression has increased, the paper argues since 9/11.

The political repression paper demands an “immediate criminal investigation into the conspiracy,” and also new trials for two now-aged left-wing activists jailed on murder charges, Mumia Abu Jamal and Leonard Peltier.

The repression paper was authored by the National Conference of Black Lawyers and the Malcolm X Center for Self Determination, neither of which are listed among USHRN’s member organizations. It is endorsed by a host of other organizations, however, including at least that is not only a USHRN member, but is also cited in the U.N. summary as the author of a separate submission to the Periodic Review. This seems to indicate that USHRN’s collective viewpoint is being augmented by other, nominally independent contributors to the Review.

Yet another position paper, on “The Continuum of Domestic Repression” in the U.S., asserts that “today, police still routinely make unfounded mass arrests and detentions to keep people off the streets and out of the eye of the media which tends to be accommodating.” It further condemns the use of high-security detention measures against terrorists such as Sayed Fahad Hashmi , a Pakistani-born U.S. citizen who pled guilty this year to conspiracy for providing support to Al Qaeda. Hashmi, the paper says, was held in high-security custody for three years. The paper says such treatment is “typical of how terrorism suspects are being treated in U.S. prisons and courts.”

The “Continuum” paper was submitted by the African American Institute for Policy Studies & Planning, the October 22 Coalition, and the Ida B. Wells Media Institute. None of them are listed on the USHRN website as member organizations.

However, an organization called the Afrikan Amerikan Institute for Policy Studies and Planning, Inc., which calls itself “a volunteer Grassroots, community based think tank created more than 10 years ago,” and is based in Greenville, South Carolina, claims on its website that the Malcolm X Center for Self-Determination, co-author of the other repression paper in the USHRN portfolio, is one of its projects. The Coordinator/President-CEO of the Afrikan Amerikan Institute is Efia Nwangaza, a onetime Green Party candidate for the U.S. Senate.

On its website, the Oct. 22 Coalition gives its full name as “The October 22nd Coalition to Stop Police Brutality, Repression and the Criminalization of a Generation.” According to its website, its birth “came out of conversations” among a group of radical activists, including a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party. Since 1996, the Coalition has organized national days of protest annually on its name day, and uses a post office box in New York’s East Village as a focal point for organizing. (The October 22 date, the website says, does not have a “significance in its own right.” The protesters wanted a day when “students would be back in school, and before the elections.”)

The USHRN position paper on U.S. labor relations, however, was submitted by much better-known mainstream organizations. Among them: the AFL-CIO, the Teamsters, the United Steelworkers and the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). None are listed as USHRN members.

Among other things, the labor paper points to declining U.S. union membership as a function of discriminatory U.S. labor laws, including the National Labor Relations Act, and declares that “core internationally established labor rights are not adequately protected by state and federal laws that govern the American workplace” and adds that “workers have resorted to international fora to seek redress.”

It says that corporate harassment, threats, unlawful interrogations and retaliatory firings are “standard practice” in U.S. union organizing, and calls on the U.S. to obey “pertinent international instruments” to, among other things, adopt the Employee Free Choice Act, commonly known as “card check,” to ensure all workers get full federal and state labor law protection “regardless of migration status.” It also calls on U.S. governments give broader latitude to allowing public sector labor strikes.

The sheer expanse of the USHRN effort virtually guaranteed it would have a major impact on the U.N.’s summary documentation for the November 5 Periodic Review—and so, apparently, did the Network’s heavy participation in the State Department’s cross-country “consultations” in the lead-up to the review.

In an acknowledgement at the front of the document USHRN executive director Ajamu Baraka, lauds two of his workers for efforts across the country where they “continually held the State Department to its commitments even though corralling federal officials was not part of their job description.”

Baraka himself is no stranger to strenuous efforts on behalf of his causes. A onetime director of Amnesty International USA’s southern regional director and head of its anti-death penalty campaign, he has been described as “a veteran grassroots organizer with roots in the Black Liberation movement, anti-apartheid and Central American solidarity struggles.”

Personally hailed, according to various reports, by then-U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, as a human rights activist, Baraka was also listed in May 2000 as an attendee of the first U.N. preparatory committee meeting to lay the groundwork for the Durban World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. He apparently attended as a delegate of the World Peace Council, an organization created in the early days of the Cold War, and which now describes itself as “an anti-imperialist, democratic, independent and non-aligned international movement of mass action.”

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Last edited by Uncle Fester on Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:43 am 
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*hand clamps firmly over my mouth*

mmm mmph mmm mm. MMMM MMM mmm mmm mmmmmmm. M mmmm mmmm mmmmmm mmmmmm mm mm mmmm!

*hand comes off of the mouth*

And I hope it gets right in their eyes!

truthfully: I have no possible way to voice my opinion about this without going off of the deep end in BAD karmic buildup and loathsome levels of ultra-violence.
Spoiler:
Image

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Last edited by darksiege on Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:47 am 
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Damn it, should be Trial, stupid late night posting. Mock away.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:37 am 
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UF - Your mother is a wood pigeon and your father smells of fermented pyracantha berries. Transposing letters is so gauche.

Have you tried editing your post title?

The UN, on the other hand, has become irrelevant to the world except as a gesture to pretend the world community has some power working together.

Send the United Nations back to The Hague, where the League of Nations lived. See if the world pays any attention to it after it leaves New York.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:22 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Damn it, should be Trial, stupid late night posting. Mock away.

Mock mock mock

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:20 am 
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Micheal, if it were in the Hague, the UN would be far less useful to USA, as it might stop being the American puppet organization that it is. The UN exists only because the USA wants it to, and for no other reason. Let them have their meaningless trial (the only irony is that those organizations are worse. The travesties still happening at Gitmo that so undermines the values of a "free country" are worth putting "on trial," but there's no suitable venue to have one in.)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:52 am 
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What the flying frak they gonna do? Order us to use our own military to sanction ourselves? Deploy french peacekeepers to Camden NJ? Have british soldiers try to make it from the temple university train to downtown philly without dying?

They'd have never tried this w GW in the White House. I firmly believe Bush would have kicked them out and padlocked the door.

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 Post subject: Re: US on Trial the UN
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:58 am 
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The idea that the UN is a puppet organization of the US is hilarious. It's really just a stage for any nation to use "legal" proceedings to create political hay against anyone else it wants to. The US is no different in terms of being on either the receiving or the giving end of this than anyone else except in terms of its prominence, which is due to its size.

The Hague would just make it worse. There's already too many of these "world courts" and what-have-you in Europe, especially in Belgium and the Netherlands that are really just a way for Europe to pretend its in a position to administer justice to the rest of the world.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:16 am 
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Just like the US likes to pretent it's in a position to administer justice in the world? Except that we tend to not use courts but the military.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:26 am 
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Talya wrote:
(the only irony is )


That's not the only irony.

Quote:
Those allegations, and many more, will come from Americans themselves — especially from a stridently critical network of U.S. organizations


How bad are human rights in the US if we allow US organizations to exist whose sole purpose is to criticize the US government?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:29 am 
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We're effective, but stupid oppressors, Arathain.

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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
We're effective, but stupid oppressors, Arathain.
That's almost a money quote.

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Khross wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
We're effective, but stupid oppressors, Arathain.
That's almost a money quote.


Doesn't matter, the currency is being devalued. We need a gold quote.

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Aizle wrote:
Just like the US likes to pretent it's in a position to administer justice in the world? Except that we tend to not use courts but the military.


We don't do that. We use our military power to defend and promote our own interests. Sometimes we

In any case, it's silly to compare the US and the UN in that way. The US is just one nation, essentially doing what all nations have always done. The UN is a collection of nations trying to pretend to authority over international dealings.

The only reason the US appears different is greater capabilities. If New Zealand had our military power, you'd find their attitude changed rather rapidly. They don't, and won't, though, so its to their advantage to use sweet words about how other nations should conduct business to give themselves "soft" power. We do exactly the same thing; we pretend it's about justice and democracy but really, it's only about justice and democracy insofar as its to our net benefit to promote them.

Take Canada, for example. It's to Canada's benefit to keep close relations with the US because its a lot cheaper for them to defend that huge space if we foot much of the bill, which is in turn to our benefit becuase it's an immense buffer. Hence things like NORAD appeared. It's also obviously to the benfit to both countries to maintain good trade relationships.

In Canada's case, they have a much smaller population, however, so they really can't be an equal partner, especially in the military aspects of it. This isn't because Canada is inferior; it just can't do as much with 30 million people as we can with 10x that.

Therefore, it's to Canada's benfit to use political pressure as a means to get the US to do what it wants. It applies that pressure in any umber of ways, but one of those ways is to cricticize American unilateral actions. The reason is, when action is decided by a committee of nations, small nations get proportionally more decisions power and larger ones proportionally less, especially when voting evens the playing field. It's essentially an arrangement of "you guys foot the bill sicne you're so big,, but we all get an equal vote". The country providing the most still has more real power leading up to the vote, but not as much as it otherwise would.

This is one of the goals of the UN - giving smaller countries control over bigger ones. That was always limited by vetos, but it's still a basic goal of a system where each nation gets a vote. Since the end of the Cold War, it's basically become about controlling the US (and to a lesser extent the UK, France, and a few others)

Don't buy the hype - other countries do not ***** because of what we do; they ***** because they didn't to tell us to do it.

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Well, to play devil's advocate for the moment, there does tend to be a rather strong anti-Muslim/Islamic undercurrent running through the US at the moment.

In fact, there is a pretty strong "If you are not a red-blooded American, you are my enemy" sentiment at the moment.

We are not the only ones guilty of this, of course, but for a nation that is often looked upon to set the best example in every field, we sure are falling short.


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Rodahn wrote:
Well, to play devil's advocate for the moment, there does tend to be a rather strong anti-Muslim/Islamic undercurrent running through the US at the moment.

In fact, there is a pretty strong "If you are not a red-blooded American, you are my enemy" sentiment at the moment.

We are not the only ones guilty of this, of course, but for a nation that is often looked upon to set the best example in every field, we sure are falling short.


Even so, it's not particularly a bad place to be if you are muslim (relatively speaking). Individuals in the population may cause you problems, but that's mostly the extent of it (unless you have a relative who's a terrorist, or suspected terrorist, then you're probably ****).


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Rodahn,

as opposed to the pro American sentiment that the Muslim countries have had?

I do not remember seeing pictures of America as a whole celebrating bombings in Muslim countries like they did when the WTC was hit on 9/11.

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darksiege wrote:
Rodahn,
as opposed to the pro American sentiment that the Muslim countries have had?


*Ahem*

Rodahn wrote:
We are not the only ones guilty of this, of course, but for a nation that is often looked upon to set the best example in every field, we sure are falling short.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:43 pm 
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I'm sure the Gov't could create some rather strict controls on the speech/actions of the individual citizens who are promoting the anti-whatever sentiment, but then it wouldn't really be the United States, would it?

As for setting the best example, yes other people look to us and we expect it of ourselves; we try, but we're human too. That said, there can be no doubt that we do a pretty damn good job.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Rodahn wrote:
Well, to play devil's advocate for the moment, there does tend to be a rather strong anti-Muslim/Islamic undercurrent running through the US at the moment.


So? Right now, Americans perceive nations that are strongly muslim as most likely to be the ones doing something contrary to our interests.

More importantly, public perception and nationl policy aren't motivated by the same things. Most people in charge of actually running a nation's affairs on the international scene realize that the public's reasons for supporting something aren't necessarily the same as the actual reasons its done.

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In fact, there is a pretty strong "If you are not a red-blooded American, you are my enemy" sentiment at the moment.


There is? Where is this sentiment, and what's a "red-blooded American"?

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We are not the only ones guilty of this, of course, but for a nation that is often looked upon to set the best example in every field, we sure are falling short.


We're not looked upon to set an example at all. People here like to believe that, but we aren't.

Anyone from another nation claiming that we are is either A) using it for his own purposes or B) hasn't thought through why anyone needs the US to set an example for them.

The everyday people in other nations may look to us as an example, and they may find that we're failing in that regard. That only illustrates that political posturing works on most everyday people.

People tend to anthropomorhize nations a great deal more than is merited. Nations are not people. They are not created equal, they do not have friends, and the best you can hope for is that the self-interest they act in will be "enlightened".

I support the U.S. doing what's in its own interests because it's my country. I expect that other people from other countries will do the same for their country. When people apply double standards wherein the U.S. is supposed to be "better" than everyone else, and ***** about our behavior, I take them on. Not because I think the US is magically special, but because most of the time its someone complaining about the fact that the US can do things that they can't, and pretending that their nation acts differently because it's better. Being proud of your country is fine, but don't pretend like it's populated with the magically enlightened people that everyone seems the expect the US to have.

Or to put it more succinctly, I'm all about the realpolitik.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:43 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Rodahn wrote:
Well, to play devil's advocate for the moment, there does tend to be a rather strong anti-Muslim/Islamic undercurrent running through the US at the moment.


So? Right now, Americans perceive nations that are strongly muslim as most likely to be the ones doing something contrary to our interests.

More importantly, public perception and nationl policy aren't motivated by the same things. Most people in charge of actually running a nation's affairs on the international scene realize that the public's reasons for supporting something aren't necessarily the same as the actual reasons its done.


True, and I'm not denying this. As I said, I'm playing devil's advocate and pointing out why those with Muslim interests can be justified in their accusations. It's just the other side of the mirror.

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In fact, there is a pretty strong "If you are not a red-blooded American, you are my enemy" sentiment at the moment.


There is? Where is this sentiment, and what's a "red-blooded American"?


Look at those who were and still are in an uproar about Obama's origin of birth. And, as I mentioned above, look at the general anti-Muslim sentiment in the US. Look at the backlash south of the border migrant workers get. Even those who are here legally, or were born here. Racist sentiment is all around us. And I used "red blooded American" as an expression for a typical, Caucasian male and female citizen of European decent.

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We are not the only ones guilty of this, of course, but for a nation that is often looked upon to set the best example in every field, we sure are falling short.


We're not looked upon to set an example at all. People here like to believe that, but we aren't.

Anyone from another nation claiming that we are is either A) using it for his own purposes or B) hasn't thought through why anyone needs the US to set an example for them.

The everyday people in other nations may look to us as an example, and they may find that we're failing in that regard. That only illustrates that political posturing works on most everyday people.


I both agree and disagree. I agree that no singular nation should be looked upon to set examples, but I disagree in that I think much of the world does look to the US to set the example for pretty much everything. I'm not saying that it's right per se, just that, it simply exists. And if our perceived duty to the rest of the world is to set the bar for what's best or what's right, again from the devil's advocate viewpoint, we aren't living up to our full potential.

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People tend to anthropomorhize nations a great deal more than is merited. Nations are not people. They are not created equal, they do not have friends, and the best you can hope for is that the self-interest they act in will be "enlightened".


Agreed.

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I support the U.S. doing what's in its own interests because it's my country. I expect that other people from other countries will do the same for their country. When people apply double standards wherein the U.S. is supposed to be "better" than everyone else, and ***** about our behavior, I take them on. Not because I think the US is magically special, but because most of the time its someone complaining about the fact that the US can do things that they can't, and pretending that their nation acts differently because it's better. Being proud of your country is fine, but don't pretend like it's populated with the magically enlightened people that everyone seems the expect the US to have.

Or to put it more succinctly, I'm all about the realpolitik.


Again, I agree. This shouldn't be one singular nation's burden to bear. I think a lot of it started from the big influx of immigrants around the late 19th and early 20th centuries. There were literally immigrants arriving in America in tears thinking that they had landed in some Heavenly city called New York. Word spread around the rest of the world, and the precedent was set for America being the superlative.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Rodahn wrote:
True, and I'm not denying this. As I said, I'm playing devil's advocate and pointing out why those with Muslim interests can be justified in their accusations. It's just the other side of the mirror.


I don't see how you're establishing that they're justified in their accusations. Sure, they might be, but only because they are holding the U.S. to a double standard. So what if they're justified?

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[Look at those who were and still are in an uproar about Obama's origin of birth. And, as I mentioned above, look at the general anti-Muslim sentiment in the US. Look at the backlash south of the border migrant workers get. Even those who are here legally, or were born here. Racist sentiment is all around us. And I used "red blooded American" as an expression for a typical, Caucasian male and female citizen of European decent.


I don't see that there's all that many people that are concerned about Obama's birth, and many of those are really more concerned about the stnading issue than his actual birth.

As for the workers, that has nothing to do with being a "red blooded American" and everything to do with being an American legally.

Racist sentiment is not all around us. Hell, none of the things you mentioned is in any way unique to whites.

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I both agree and disagree. I agree that no singular nation should be looked upon to set examples, but I disagree in that I think much of the world does look to the US to set the example for pretty much everything. I'm not saying that it's right per se, just that, it simply exists. And if our perceived duty to the rest of the world is to set the bar for what's best or what's right, again from the devil's advocate viewpoint, we aren't living up to our full potential.


A) so what if they do? We should subordinate our own interests to their desire to see us be some nebulous "example" Should we be held to a higher standard the rest of the world does not hold itself to because they've decided we're to be an example?

B) Our potential in what way? How do you know we have this potential? People talk about this vague notion of this nation we supposedly should be all the time, but I hae yet to see any concrete way we could do this that isn't wildly unrealistic or doesn't simply sacrifice our interests to placate everyone else.

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Again, I agree. This shouldn't be one singular nation's burden to bear. I think a lot of it started from the big influx of immigrants around the late 19th and early 20th centuries. There were literally immigrants arriving in America in tears thinking that they had landed in some Heavenly city called New York. Word spread around the rest of the world, and the precedent was set for America being the superlative.


I would point out that all these nations that we're supposed to "set the example for" are also the ones that scream and yell about how they don't want to be Americanized.

It shouldn't be one nation's burden to bear, but that means we should stop trying to bear it, and we should tell everyone else we're not going to.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Why would they do this during the Obama admin?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:40 pm 
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The U.S. is a sovereign nation . It can't go on "trial". Furthermore we spend more than enough on our military to back this up.

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The Reid Court (U.S. Supreme Court) held in their Opinion that,

"... No agreement with a foreign nation can confer power on the Congress, or any other branch of government, which is free from the restraints of the Constitution. Article VI, the Supremacy clause of the Constitution declares, "This Constitution and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all the Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land...’
"There is nothing in this language which intimates that treaties and laws enacted pursuant to them do not have to comply with the provisions of the Constitution nor is there anything in the debates which accompanied the drafting and ratification which even suggest such a result...

"It would be manifestly contrary to the objectives of those who created the Constitution, as well as those who were responsible for the Bill of Rights – let alone alien to our entire constitutional history and tradition – to construe Article VI as permitting the United States to exercise power UNDER an international agreement, without observing constitutional prohibitions. (See: Elliot’s Debates 1836 ed. – pgs 500-519).

"In effect, such construction would permit amendment of that document in a manner not sanctioned by Article V. The prohibitions of the Constitution were designed to apply to all branches of the National Government and they cannot be nullified by the Executive or by the Executive and Senate combined."


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:50 am 
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Some sovereignity is more sovereign than others. We are the most sovereign of all countries and can do what we please.

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