The Glade 4.0

Show your work, X.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I think several generations of American history demonstrate that Americans are willing to tolerate unions right up until the point that unions are bankrupting us.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I'm actually going to keep looking for more evidence on not-horribly biased sites and get back to this, I just wanted to say I posted that comment because if you read the articles on CNN or MSNBC they have phrases like "neutering the unions," "limiting/removing most collective bargaining rights," and "ending union contracts" interspersed every other paragraph. Since the proposed budget cuts are pretty modest like you mentioned it seemed like that was the real goal.

No, they aren't trying to break the union unless the union wants to be unreasonable.

They are asking for small concessions because they are trying to respect the public employees and are not placing back breaking new conditions on them.

They are simply asking that public employees share the pain.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

What work is there to show? The intent of the actions in Wisconsin are to remove the ability for government workers to have collective bargaining. If that isn't union busting, what is?

Public Union employees, loads of Joy there.
People who are guaranteed lifetime pay, and health benefits regardless of the market conditions and other economic factors. people who intentionally game the system to maximize what the tax payers will have to dish out, even though on the average they make more than their private sector counter parts. people who demand more money every time their contract is up. people who can't be fired for incompetence. or failure to preform their assigned duties.

Seriously take a look at what goes on in these unions and how they screw the public.

Everything in public services is overloaded with overhead due to the inability to eliminate unneeded waste and useless personal. Unions as a whole are nothing more than Pariahs on business, consumers and taxpayers.
Along time ago unions played a crucial role in establishing worker protections, but that time is long gone. Their purpose now is to fleece every one they can for their own self enrichment, they don't have to provide quality product as they're protected.

all major unions should be disbanded. declared illegal, their should only be limited trade skill unions that actually provide training, and in house company unions for negotiation purposes. That an employer can choose to renew a contract with or not.

You try to hit my company with union demands I'll fire everybody, liquidate the company and retire.

_________________
History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

Apparently you are only interested in what biased parties have to say. The measures in Wisconsin are to require teachers and non-public safety unionized state employees to share in the costs of their retirement and healthcare plans. But, you know, it's all good ...

_________________

Some of you believe it is acceptable to guarantee benefits to another - no matter what - on the promise of taking the fruit of another's labor to fulfill that promise?

And some of you considered Michael wise at one point?

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Uh huh.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/sta ... -severely/

If it indeed was only about requiring unionized state employees to share in the costs of retirement and healthcare, this wouldn't have made national news. But you know, it's all good...

my search fu is weak... I know we have argued this very thing about State Employee's (or the unions) being unwilling to share in the cost of their benefits.

I want to believe it was the thread where Christie was receiving threats by teachers...

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I can tell why the unions are against these measures. I feel it finally makes the unions accountable to their members by making the unions have to be "reelected" each year.

If I was a union official, that alone would terrify me.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Everyone wants to cut someone else's piece of the pie, but you better keep your hands off mine.

/Shrug

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Yes, we know you read Politifact as gospel, Aizle. I guess you forgot the last time you trotted it out; you know, when I demonstrated they were false on 3 statements in 20 seconds?

_________________

You didn't demonstrate ****.

Except I did ...

They were demonstrably falsifying things to uphold a political bias. More to the point, having read the bill in question in Wisconsin, they are grossly misrepresenting the situation there. But, you know ...

You haven't read said bill and are only interested in following the party line dick waving.

If any Union Busting actually goes on in Wisconsin, it's because the now criminal Democrats (they're in Contempt of Congress for the state for failing to adhere to a chamber issued summons to appear last week) leave that as the only option for the governor.

So, yes, Politifact is once again factually wrong and issuing statements from the point of political bias.

Police and Firefighter Unions are exempt from the changes. The changes proposed require yearly renewal of the CBA and 8% payment towards retirement and healthcare by union members in affected state employee unions. That's it.

It's not some grand union busting scheme. It's not even an unreasonable set of requirements by the Congress of Wisconsin and the Governor.

_________________

I disagree with him here, but yes.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I think the problem lies on the opposite end, private companies have kept wages stagnant. Now people see Tollworkers making 62k+ per year (50 base) and say **** you greedy *****, when in reality public employees are the only people who get guaranteed cost of living increases. Unions are being villified because their employees earn what we should.

_________________

I earn what I should. If you aren't earning what you feel you deserve, you should a) increase your marketability or b) find another job.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

If you say so. Some might argue that wages being flat over the past 95 years despite increases in technology, productivity and skillsets on the is indicative of a systemic problem. It makes sense since a coal-miner from 1917 would be equally valuable today. But you are right I guess I could go find another job... for roughly the same wages.

On a related note, do you know how wages and benefit packages are set at your company? Or more relevantly, at a Fortune 500 company?

_________________

Wages will remain flat unless we have enormous inflation. It's not a "problem", just how the economy works.

Wages remaining relatively flat despite inflation pretty much disproves the economic theories guiding inflation.

_________________

In 1950, the average salary was $2992. It seems that wages follow inflation.

Wages flat over the past 95 years?

Average wage 1915: $687
Working full time at minimum wage (40 x 52): $15,080
What cost $687 in 1915 would cost $14392.43 in 2009.

What am I missing?

I find it rather tin-foil worthy to believe that "private companies have kept wages stagnant" to such an extent that nothing's changed in 95 years. That would require a conspiracy on such grand levels as to stagger the mind.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Yeah, I don't get it either. Look at standard of living. It has improved dramatically. There are many things that feed into this, but one big one is disposable income.

If you brought many household items back to 1950, you'd be a millionaire based on their worth. Just imagine how much someone would pay for a computer from 2030.