The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 4:39 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 148 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:20 am 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Hannibal wrote:
Khross wrote:
I fear you've made a grievous error in your analysis, Stathol.
And what has been added that supercedes what stathol posted and that would make his analysis wrong?
I fear you've made the same grievous error in your analysis, Hannibal.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:36 am
Posts: 3083
Stathol wrote:
Article 2, Section 2 wrote:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

Emphasis mine. The conditional qualification here is not accidental. Note that nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the President has power to call the military into the service of the United States -- only that when they have been, he has the power to command them.

I believe the "called into actual service" clause refers only to calling up the Militia.

The OED wrote:
war, n.
1. a. Hostile contention by means of armed forces, carried on between nations, states, or rulers, or between parties in the same nation or state; the employment of armed forces against a foreign power, or against an opposing party in the state.

The dictionary definition isn't necessarily dispositive here though. A "war" in the legal sense isn't always the same as a "war" in the common sense...uh...sense. And even in common usage, people generally distinguish between a "war" and an isolated military strike. Figuring out exactly what the term was meant to encompass as used in the Constitution isn't a simple exercise, particularly when you factor in actual historical practice/application.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:51 am 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Stathol wrote:
Article 2, Section 2 wrote:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

Emphasis mine. The conditional qualification here is not accidental. Note that nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the President has power to call the military into the service of the United States -- only that when they have been, he has the power to command them.
RangerDave wrote:
I believe the "called into actual service" clause refers only to calling up the Militia.
There are two commas separating "and of the Militia of the several states".

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 3455
Location: St. Louis, MO
I'm guessing Khross's response is meant to obliquely refer to the problem of relying on the 10th as a basic premise.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:54 am 
Offline
Deuce Master

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:45 am
Posts: 3099
Diamondeye wrote:
Screeling wrote:
So wait, RD. Lobbing missles into another sovereign nation is not an act of war, but a military engagement? Is that what we would call it if another country did that to the U.S.?


Point out where in the Constitution it says that the President needs a declaration of war to take any particular action as Commander in Chief.

It doesn't, precisely because the framers knew damn well sometimes you would need to use the military for something that really didn't need a full-up declaration, not to mentiont hat it specifies no format, for, or name for such a declaration. Several of the framers were involved in the government at the time of the Barbary pirates incidents.

The bottom line is that the power of Congress to declare war really doesn't actually serve much purpose in the Constitution. Congress can make other laws that require a declaration of war for certain things to be done with or by the military under their power to make rules for the militia, but even that is of undetermined latitude because Congress cannot use that to usurp the power of the President as Commander in Chief.

An act of war also does not make a war by itself. It can lead to one, but there's a reason "acts of war" are differentiated from wars - to define such acts that take place without an actual war going on.

Jefferson obtained a declaration of war to deal with the Barbary pirates. You also don't need a declaration of war to defend your own territory because that's what the military is for.

I don't see how your position is at all consistent with the spirit of checks and balances. Your argument allows the President to attack any country he wants and get the country into a de facto state of war. I'm not sure you can convince me that's what the framer's intended.

_________________
The Dude abides.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
shuyung wrote:
I'm guessing Khross's response is meant to obliquely refer to the problem of relying on the 10th as a basic premise.


Shhh. It's a secret.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:55 pm 
Offline
Has a plan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
Posts: 1584
shuyung wrote:
I'm guessing Khross's response is meant to obliquely refer to the problem of relying on the 10th as a basic premise.


Meh, I give folks a chance to explain. If they take it, awesome, if they don't then I continue as if it didn't get posted.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:09 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Stathol wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Point out where in the Constitution it says that the President needs a declaration of war to take any particular action as Commander in Chief.


Let's start with this:

Amendment 10 wrote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So it follows that the President does not have the power to do something unless the document specifically grants it to him elsewhere. Now let's look at the only thing the Constitution has to say about the president with regards to the military:

Article 2, Section 2 wrote:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

Emphasis mine. The conditional qualification here is not accidental. Note that nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the President has power to call the military into the service of the United States -- only that when they have been, he has the power to command them.

So, if not the President, does the Constitution grant the power to call the military into service to anyone? Why, yes:

Article 1, Section 8 wrote:
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Declaring war is not just a political gesture unless you are unfamiliar with war is.

The OED wrote:
war, n.
1. a. Hostile contention by means of armed forces, carried on between nations, states, or rulers, or between parties in the same nation or state; the employment of armed forces against a foreign power, or against an opposing party in the state.


So in other words, Article 1, Section 8 grants Congress the power to declare the employment of armed forces against, etc. I.e., the power to call the military into service of the United States. Not the President.

And, after all, this particular method of division of power is highly consistent with the rest of the document. It is exactly what we would expect: one branch directs, another executes, and the last reviews.


Except that it does not. "When in sevice of the United States" refers to the State militias; normally they are in State service. The Federal military is always in the service of the United States.

I'm sure someone will show up with some line of bullshit about how sentence structure means yadda yadda yadda, but the fact of the matter is that your interpretation would mean that when the Federal military was not "called into the service of the United States" it would have no commander, and, for all intents and purposes, be unaccountable to civilian leadership. This is something the Founding Fathers, especially George Washington, could not possibly have overlooked, so regardless of what errors they might have made in phrasing that clause, that is what it actually means, by both logic and precedent.

The 10th Ammendment is utterly irrelevant here. The President has the power to command the military, explicitly granted. Trying to find semantic ways around it that create unnacceptable, glaring holes in the way the government would work is just trying to find ways to be right on the internet. The power to declare war is the same; it is pure assumption that the PResident needs a declaration of war to engage in military action; no such connection is established anywhere.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:12 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Khross wrote:
Stathol wrote:
Article 2, Section 2 wrote:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

Emphasis mine. The conditional qualification here is not accidental. Note that nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the President has power to call the military into the service of the United States -- only that when they have been, he has the power to command them.
RangerDave wrote:
I believe the "called into actual service" clause refers only to calling up the Militia.
There are two commas separating "and of the Militia of the several states".


Irrelevant. that woudl elave the peacetime military with no commander. Regardless of what linguistic errors were made in writing the clause, its actual meaning is that the President commandes the Federal military at all times, and the militas in Federal service.

Don't try to escape with "but there wasn't supposed to be a standing Army." There was indisputably to be a Navy, which would require a civilian commander at all times.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:29 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
...

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:33 pm 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Your interpretation is wrong because it fails to account for English sentence structure; Khross has already pointed out why. But then, you've already presumed, preemptively, that any such arguments are "bullshit" so I suppose there's obviously little point in continuing that conversation.

As to your second argument it, though, this is also incorrect. At most, it would leave the armed forces without a Command in Chief during times of peace. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be a problem. The CinC is really only needed when engaging in war. Having no Commander in Chief (<- capitalization is important too, not just punctuation...) is not the same thing as having no chain of command whatsoever.

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:39 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
Fun historical questions: When was the first time the United States appointed a five star general? When was the last time the United States appointed a five star general?

Fun philosophical question: Did the United States military prove itself incapable of functioning in eras when there was no five star general in command of the armies?

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 4922
It's very funny how the Constitution has "linguistic errors" because it isn't written the way you'd want.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:40 pm 
Offline
Noli me calcare
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 am
Posts: 4747
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Well, that didn't last long. So, we are no longer "protecting civilians". We are taking an active role in the revolution. The government confirmed that we have CIA inside Libya embedded with the rebels, providing tactical training and calling in air strikes along the front lines.


I'd be willing to bet my house that there are special forces there as well.

Next up - arming the "freedom fighters"! That is, unless the public backlash is too strong against giving weapons to known terrorists. It's obvious that even with the hundreds and hundreds of missiles, air strikes and bombs the "no-fly zone" was a day late and a dollar short.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:43 pm 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Ok, I know it's futile, but I can't resist:

"Bob is the CEO of FooCorp, and its subsidiaries, during the months of April and November."

Pop quiz: When is Bob the CEO of FooCorp?

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:48 pm 
Offline
Noli me calcare
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 am
Posts: 4747
Corolinth wrote:
Fun historical questions: When was the first time the United States appointed a five star general? When was the last time the United States appointed a five star general?

Fun philosophical question: Did the United States military prove itself incapable of functioning in eras when there was no five star general in command of the armies?


If you're speaking specifically of "5 star generals":
Marshall: 1944
Bradley: 1950
No

If you are referring to "General of the Army", different answers.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:55 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
I am speaking specifically of five-star generals, yes. Washington, Grant, and Pershing were not, strictly speaking, five-star generals, though they served the same role. Which was sort of the point.

Vindicarre wrote:
Next up - arming the "freedom fighters"! That is, unless the public backlash is too strong against giving weapons to known terrorists.
Twenty or thirty years later, we'll be going to war again to look for weapons of mass destruction. Europe will whine and cry, we won't want to show anyone the sales receipts to prove their existence, and we'll be very embarrassed when we "don't find anything."

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:59 pm 
Offline
Noli me calcare
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 am
Posts: 4747
I think Pershing might be a special case, though, Coro. IIRC he could have worn the fifth star after 1944, but chose not to do so.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:05 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
I was reading about that not too long ago, and from what I remember, Pershing created some issues early in the war. Not Pershing personally, but the United States did not want to raise a general to a rank above what Pershing himself wore. The public loved him, and didn't want to see a modern general given a greater honor.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:21 pm 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Vindicarre wrote:
I think Pershing might be a special case, though, Coro. IIRC he could have worn the fifth star after 1944, but chose not to do so.

I'd not heard that. Do you know his reasons why?

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:33 pm 
Offline
Noli me calcare
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 am
Posts: 4747
Nope. I can only guess that it was because he knew he was the top general and everyone else knew he was the top general so maybe there was no point.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and even after the regs changed he couldn't wear the fifth star even though he was not outranked by those who could. /shrug

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:43 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
My understanding of the fifth star is that it's purely a war rank. I believe Omar Bradley only wore it during Korea.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:48 pm 
Offline
Noli me calcare
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 am
Posts: 4747
Makes sense.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:59 am
Posts: 3879
Location: 63368
Stathol wrote:
Ok, I know it's futile, but I can't resist:

"Bob is the CEO of FooCorp, and its subsidiaries,during the months of April and November when called into the actual Service of FooCorp."

Pop quiz: When is Bob the CEO of FooCorp?

The day he was appointed 'till the day they un-appoint him.

_________________
In time, this too shall pass.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:04 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Article II, Section 2 wrote:
The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
Does anyone here know what the above syntactic unit is called?

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 148 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 66 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group