The Glade 4.0

Aizle:

You seem to think that elections matter. So, let's look at the empirical evidence of the last 9 months. What has changed in Washington except for the Party Affiliation of the Person in the White House? Better yet, who's being marginalized in this country for their protests? At least one person thinks the 700,000 people that showed up for the Tax Day Tea Parties is all fringe radical racists and sell outs. What do you think? What about the Town Hall Protests and the vocal opposition to the Health Care proposals?

The truth is, you're just praying that there's assent for the behavior of the current President and his government. You're praying there's assent instead of apathy and ignorance, because you hope it will retroactively validate your opposition to the previous Idiot in Chief, and the Idiot in Chief before him, and the Idiot in Chief before him, and so on. You hope that the people can effect change on the government, because if they can't ... if it really is moot as the evidence suggests ... if they can't, then all your politics and feel-good ideology buys you is the comfort of knowing you were wrong.

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No man is more the slave than the one who falsely believes he is not one.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Khross, I'm not really interested in going over yet again, where you and I disagree on what changes are "good" or "bad" and what those differences are.

Elmo, you really need to put your money where you're mouth is and go start a revolution already.

It doesn't matter if the changes are "good" or "bad" nor is any such discussion even necessary. Any "changes" are superficial at best; there hasn't been any substantial change.

And you really need to put your money where you mouth is and actually donate money to charity rather than say paying taxes is a charitable contribution and it should be required of other citizens.

How does that even begin to rebut what was posted? No where does that quote say anything to the effect of "A man who is a slave must free himself through force." It simply says, one who believes himself to be free often is the least free. Much like the biggest tools are the ones who think they cannot possibly be a tool.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

You're deflecting the issue at hand. What substantive changes have occurred in the governance of this nation since Barack Obama took office? We don't need subjective valuations of merit or the lack thereof, we need substantive validation of "change" and alteration of the government. Your contention, albeit implicit, is that the majority of Americans support the current President and policy positions. So, demonstrate your positive assertion that the majority of individuals assent to his policies.

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You're making the assumption that I believe that substantive change within our government can be accomplished in 9 months.

Aizle:

It's not an assumption. Substantive change to governance could have been made in 24 hours. Indeed, he promised substantive change would occur immediately; that is, until he continued to hire lobbyists.

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/eyeroll

That's your response to factual statements?

I mean, sure, you may not believe that real and significant changes can be brought to the government within 9 months, but you'd be wrong. Khross pointing that out, apparently, brings a brush-off non-response rather than a retort.

Is that because you concede the issue or because you're unable to form a coherent argument against his point?

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

No, that's my response to the derail and nick picking bullshit that constantly happens on these forums.

Just a good reminder on why I don't post here much anymore.

Feel free to re-rail the subject then.

Alternatively, if you haven't done so in the past, you could go try a forum where they nazi the **** out of the thread topics and delete/warn/ban de-railers.

Conversations meander, get over it.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Oh, nit-picking. Is that just a synonym for rigor and consistency?

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

So, your response to a derail you started and the nit-picking your performing is to roll your eyes at a legitimate question around the issue at hand: the current Chief Executive's decision to micro-manage private businesses in the United States?

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According to Politifact.com, Obama has kept 51 of his campaign promises that he made during the campaign, has 131 of them in the works, and has broken 7 of them. You can visit their website if you want to look through, but if you do, you will find many things he has done that were in direct opposition to the policies of the Bush administration.

He immediately brought an end to the use of Waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques that were authorized by the Bush administration. He ordered his commanders to bring the war in Iraq to a responsible end, as promised during the campaign. He immediately moved to reverse many of the Bush administrations regulatory policies, signed the Matthew Shephard hate crime legislation into law (that had been tabled for nearly 10 years under Bush and the republicans), signed legislation regarding unequal pay for women, banned lobbyist gifts for any member of the executive branch (which runs counter to your opinion about his position on lobbyists in general), and reversed restrictions on stem cell research. These are just a handful of the overall changes the President has made since taking office last year, and more are in the works.

Saying that this President is no different than the last is simply untrue, unless you set the bar for what constitutes being "the same" as "similar in any way what so ever, no matter how minute or obscure, to the last administration".

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Montegue:

I've read the Politifact List, Montegue. We've noted, in the past, that it is extremely lenient with regard to whether or not breaking a promise constitutes compromise. He's just another politician. You need to accept that fact. After all, government is still expanding authority, making power grabs, and trampling on Civil Liberties. By the way, Obama's Administration evoked State's Secret Privilege as a counter to the lawsuit on use of that ability. Did you catch that one? Gitmo is still opened. Soldiers are still in Iraq. And the economy is in the shitter. I want substantive changes, not feel good measures that no significant impact on governance. So, right now, all you've got is Waterboarding, because the Whitehouse is still staffed with ex-special interest lobbyists as political payback.

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Yeah apparently "changing his mind" isn't breaking a promise to politifact.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Of course I did, and it was a big dissapointment.



I never expected it to just vanish on the day he took his oath of office.



I never expected Obama to have every troop out of Iraq within a year of taking office. I expected him to do what he promised - to bring a responsible end to the war in Iraq.



And yet, we saw 3.5 percent growth last quarter. That means, in less than a year, Obama's policies have gone a long way in changing the course of our economy, a course that was laid by conservatives in the previous administration. I know you think that there is no evidence of a turnaround, but evidence continues to mount in opposition to your view point.



Frankly, I think you are ignoring the substantive changes already made by this administration.




I think your goal posts are rather narrow. I've documented the substantive changes that Obama has made in just his first year. You can ignore them or pooh-pooh them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Montegue:

You should probably do better research before mistaking Q3 2008 Numbers for Q3 2009 Numbers.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/nationa ... elease.htm
1. Real GDP is down.

2. The "advance" estimate has been off for the last 7 quarters in a row by more than generally accepted.

More importantly, you need to look at why they're making that claim:
First, the durable goods increase isn't a real increase, because CARS isn't exactly a demand generating venture. Rather, it liquidated portions of stockpiled inventory that were diluting the asset positions of the various dealers and manufacturers that make cars. It looks good on paper, but is offset by the increased leverage position.

Second, if you go over the general indicators, consumption and spending are both lagging behind consumer level inflation. The cost of goods and services is rising faster than spending, which means growth in absolute dollars is meaningless. There's a reason they haven't re-chained the dollar yet: it was particularly weak vs. consumer spending in 2008. This means the numbers look better than they actually are.
Third, government spending is through the roof at the federal level, substantiating the claims of over-leveraging the deficit and economy power of the government. More importantly, with the government accounting for at least 25% of GDP, that means it's responsible for the largest single contribution to growth per the BEA Numbers. That's totally unacceptable and economically invalid. Government spending does not introduce new wealth into the system: it drains wealth.

Finally, the money shot:
The Personal Savings Rate dropped. While this indicates some degree of capital mobility, it's totally dominated by the increase in leveraged debt.

There is no growth.

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And others clearly disagree with you, Khross.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

That doesn't answer any of his arguments.

That "others disagree" (or agree) doesn't say anything about the truth value of a statement.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

Montegue:

Did you miss the part where the "Advance" estimate predicted growth last quarter only to show 0.7% contraction? Or, did you even read the post and link? I'm guessing not. Keep believing the President on this matter, because so far he's doing everything I said he would: Use the FDR Playbook to repeat the 1930s.

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Well, if he does use FDR's playbook, we might just see decades of unprescedented prosperity for the middle class.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

After a war, you mean.

And not one of these wars where we go and rebuild what we destroy on our own dime, a war where we tell the people we defend, "Okay, now you guys owe us. Here's the bill."

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Close Guantanamo Bay detention center
"As president, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act and adhere to the Geneva Conventions."—8/10/07, Washington, D.C.

He promised to close it by Jan 2010.

Withdraw U.S. combat troops from Iraq
"I will begin to remove our troops from Iraq immediately. I will remove one or two brigades a month and get all of our combat troops out of Iraq within 16 months. The only troops I will keep in Iraq will perform the limited missions of protecting our diplomats and carrying out targeted strikes on al-Qaida."—10/02/07, Chicago

These are very real words, in context that promise very specfic changes in a very specfic timeline. These are just a few of the promises that Obama made, and is being held accountable for. "Changing his mind" is not going to fly, and without the ghost of Bushes past, Obama is going to have to own every syllable.

Just like any contractor, he put in his bid, and promised certain things for a certain price. He is NOT delivering. Time for a new contractor.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Who was President of the United States in 1954?

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