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Dash
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Majority vote took away the right for gays to marry. I feel terrible for the gay couples there who are now second class citizens, and I feel a great deal of pity for those people who voted with their hate.


I thought this was an interesting take on that vote:

http://mpetrelis.blogspot.com/2009/11/t ... stons.html

Spoiler:
Quote:
To Win, Avoid Gay Inc Help;
Houston's Lesbian Parker Top Vote-Getter

We gays suffered another in an endless string of ballot prop losses tonight. The defeat in Maine, which from my San Francisco perch, sure looks like a reply with same idiots on both sides running the same show I saw with Prop 8. For our side, the same Gay Inc orgs were the national partners to Maine's effort. Here's the list of honored speakers at Tuesday night's No on 1 program:

Rea Carey, Executive Director, NLGTF
Joe Solmonese, President, Human Rights Campaign
Robin Brand, Senior Consultant, Gill Action

Thanks for another failure guys. We really couldn't continue to suffer at the ballot box without you. And to think many of the same ilk are preparing, with Equality California's leadership, to spend $15 million on educational campaigns targeting people of color communities. I have no doubt these loser will squander that money.

The immediate lesson I saw from tonight, other than the boring old one of Gay Inc really knows how to lose these things, was that if you want to be a top vote-getter, avoid lots of public backing from or be seen as the darling of the HRC/NGLTF/GLAAD/Gill Action/DNC axis.

In Maine the AP is calling the gay marriage proposition a loss. But down in Houston, Texas, the openly lesbian mayoral candidate, Annise Parker, who I really never heard of until very recently, was the top vote-getter tonight in a race still to be settled in a run-off. Check out these numbers from the Houston Chronicle:

Houston Mayor In: 84%
Annise Parker 30.5%
Gene Locke 25.9%
Peter Brown 22.9%
Roy Morales 19.8%

Obviously, Parker is doing something very right, and in Texas, of all places, and coming out on top, without any overt push from Gay Inc that I am aware of. To win the run-off, it's best to continue to keep our national orgs far, far away. Good luck, Annise. The eyes of a weakened gay political community are upon you, hungry for out and proud advancement.


Be curious to hear your thoughts on it Monte

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Dash
 Post subject: Re: Election Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Oh and allow me to tweak you with this one in a good natured manner... I thought this headline was funny:

http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/03/mai ... -marriage/

Quote:
Maine Agrees With Obama: No Same Sex Marriage


Made me lol. I'm not against gay marriage myself, I just know it's gotta needle most Obama voters though!

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Monte
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 pm 
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Obama really isn't against SSM, either (and yes, I know he has said he believes marriage is between a man and a woman). I think if a bill that legalized it crossed his desk, he would sign it.

I'm really not sure if Gay Inc is just a moniker for a particular movement, or if it's a specific organization. Without a doubt, Prop 8 passed in part because of a bungled organization on the part of it's opponents. However, what happened in Maine and California ultimately rests on the hate that drives such anti-equality agendas. Basically, people that think gay people are not equal to straight people, and thus act to restrict their equality under the law. It's just depressing.

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DFK!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:50 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Obama really isn't against SSM, either (and yes, I know he has said he believes marriage is between a man and a woman). I think if a bill that legalized it crossed his desk, he would sign it.


What makes you believe that?

His own words:

Barack Obama wrote:
OBAMA: Well, to answer the original question, I would love that child and seek to support them. I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman but I detest the bashing and vilifying of gays and lesbians. Most gays and lesbians are seeking basic recognition of their rights so they’re not discriminated against in employment or renting a house, so they can see their partner in a hospital. These are rights for everybody, not just some people.

Source: http://www.ontheissues.org/IL_2004_Senate_3rd.htm



Now, I'll reiterate:

What is your personal issue with democratic processes, given you feel that there exists a "right" to vote?

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Monte
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My issue is the same issue the framers had - that majority vote without a check and balance could easily turn into tyranny, as it did in Maine. I support representative democracy precisely because it seeks to balance the will of the people with the precepts of equal justice for all.

Again, I know Obama has said what *he* believes marriage to be, but that doesn't mean he would veto a law that legalized same sex marriage nationally. I think he would sign such a law.

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Beryllin
 Post subject: Re: Election Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:00 pm 
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One man, one vote- unless people are voting in a way I don't like.
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Monte
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What is that supposed to mean, Berylin?

What if the people of Maine voted to not allow Christians to celebrate Christmas in any way in the public square? No signs, no songs, no trees, no manger scenes, etc? Would you support that outcome of the ballot measure system?

What if they voted that Christians were not allowed to marry?

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Elmarnieh
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So either Obama lied when he made the statement about what he believes or he does believe governemnt should mandate different classes of citizens...

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Monte
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:03 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
So either Obama lied when he made the statement about what he believes or he does believe governemnt should mandate different classes of citizens...


Or he's the kind of politician that can set aside his own subjective religous beliefs in the name of equality. Or, he might change his mind. Or, he could be convinced that his initial position was not correct. Why do we expect politicians to never change their mind on policy positions?

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Kaffis Mark V
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So, Obama is a homophobe and bigot, right?

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DFK!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:07 pm 
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Monte wrote:
My issue is the same issue the framers had - that majority vote without a check and balance could easily turn into tyranny, as it did in Maine. I support representative democracy precisely because it seeks to balance the will of the people with the precepts of equal justice for all.


Fair enough, though that runs counter to previous statements I believe you to have made about the electoral college.

How do you then stand on the 17th Amendment?

Monty wrote:
Again, I know Obama has said what *he* believes marriage to be, but that doesn't mean he would veto a law that legalized same sex marriage nationally. I think he would sign such a law.


Hey, I just wanted to make sure you knew that the man is against gay marriage based upon "tradition and his beliefs."

Whether he'd veto such a bill is sheer conjecture until it comes up.

Monty wrote:
What if the people of Maine voted to not allow Christians to celebrate Christmas in any way in the public square? No signs, no songs, no trees, no manger scenes, etc? Would you support that outcome of the ballot measure system?


Uh, except that violates the US Constitution.

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Monte
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No. I wrestled with this during the campaign and came to the conclusion that Obama is a man with religious beliefs and personal beliefs that are in conflict, but that he tends to come out on the side of equality. His promise to repeal DADT and DOMA are excellent examples of his willingness to fight hard for gay equality.

And, honestly, I don't believe he thinks marriage is only between a man and a woman, deep down. I think he, like many politicians, say that, because they feel they have to. I don't *like* that, but it's not surprising.

Again, if such legislation crossed his desk, I think he would sign it.

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Beryllin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Monte wrote:
What is that supposed to mean, Berylin?

What if the people of Maine voted to not allow Christians to celebrate Christmas in any way in the public square? No signs, no songs, no trees, no manger scenes, etc? Would you support that outcome of the ballot measure system?

What if they voted that Christians were not allowed to marry?


So what? Already seeing the first glimmers of that, down the road. It won't be long before a pastor is arrested and charged with a hate crime for doing nothing more than preaching what the Bible says about homosexuality.

Truth is, people can vote to imprison all Christians, if they want to. And God can send an earthquake to open the prison doors, and guard them with angels if He so chooses.
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DFK!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:11 pm 
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Monte wrote:
And, honestly, I don't believe he thinks marriage is only between a man and a woman, deep down.


You think that he went to the church he did, with the pastor it has, in the culture it's in, but that he secretly supports gays getting married? Despite that running contrary to what he said in public, on the record?


So, in other words, we shouldn't listen to what he says on the record, but instead attempt to divine his meaning from thin air, rather than statements, history, and context?

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Mookhow
 Post subject: Re: Election Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:14 pm 
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This turn of conversation can only end badly, and it's probably best to stop before things get out of hand.

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Nitefox
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
So, Obama is a homophobe and bigot, right?



According to liberals, yes he is.

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Monte
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There are some liberals that believe that Obama is not strong enough on gay rights, but I don't know of many who would go that far, Nitefox. Which liberals, specifically, are you referring to? Or is that just a generalization? If so, what basis do you have to make it?

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Lenas
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Monte wrote:
What if the people of Maine voted to not allow Christians to celebrate Christmas in any way in the public square? No signs, no songs, no trees, no manger scenes, etc? Would you support that outcome of the ballot measure system?


Well, the Christmas tree is a Pagan thing but that point aside, this is how it should be. That nationalization of a holiday like Christmas is, I'm sure, one of the leading contributions to the sense of entitlement that Christians feel in our country. Public property should show either a) no support for any single religious holiday, or b) support for all of them.

Let's start that debate.
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Monte
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Sure, but it should probably be in a separate thread, don't you think? I mean, the questions I asked Bery were an attempt to prove a point, not start a debate about church and state.

Then again, I do see these ballot measures as a clear endorsement of religion. The movement against gay equality is alsmot entirely owned and operated by religious institutions and organizations if you drill down deep enough. In essense, the legislation that keeps gays oppressed is more or less written by the religious right.

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Nitefox
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:17 pm 
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Monte wrote:
There are some liberals that believe that Obama is not strong enough on gay rights, but I don't know of many who would go that far, Nitefox. Which liberals, specifically, are you referring to? Or is that just a generalization? If so, what basis do you have to make it?



I make it based off your logic and how you have treated people, me included, on this very board. You of course have a double standard when it comes to who says what. Obama believes marriage is between a man and a woman? Given a pass, really, deep down he doesn't believe that. Some random conservative person you've never met? Homophobe and bigot.

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Beryllin
 Post subject: Re: Election Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:32 pm 
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I have ceased to care whether I get called a homophobe or bigot; people who would change their views just because they meet with disapproval from a certain segment of society did not have strong conviction of the rightness of their position in the first place. It'll be a LONG time before the negativity of others changes my mind, so all the name-calling is useless.
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Monte
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Luckily for our country, we moved past the segment of society that said non whites were not equal to whites and that they did not deserve equal rights. I am confident that as time goes on, the same will happen with gay people. The trends in the voting in maine showed a massive amount of support for gay equality among the younger generation. As time goes on, they will vote more often, and gay people will finally be able to enjoy the equality they so richly deserve.

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Beryllin
 Post subject: Re: Election Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:40 pm 
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That may be, but it didn't happen yesterday.
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Screeling
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I heard today that Maine has civil unions, but not marriage.

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Rafael
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Abridging freedom of Religion is strictly forbidden on The Constitution. The Right to Marry (as a legally sanctioned entity) is not. The right to marriage obviously is, it is a right of The People.

Your issue should not be whether or not that gays "cannot marry". It's that there has been Unconstitutionally created a legal sanction of marriage. That this Unconstitutional sanction is not extended to gay people is moot.

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