The Glade 4.0

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Arathain, how is that BS sensor reading now?

/head explode

I was going to say someone should make a web-page devoted to Bin-Laden death conspiracy theories, but then I thought of this:

http://wonder-tonic.com/geocitiesizer/c ... y_theories

I expected this. I think they'll be released down the road though. Hopefully not too far down.

A gold mine. He's doing the same thing here lots of people have accused him of doing in the past. Saying one thing, then trying to spin away from what he said or outright claiming he didn't say things. The biggest BS alarm going off is the one for Khross. His pride wont let him admit he was wrong or misspoke, because he's so full of himself and utterly convinced he's smarter than the rest of us, that his ego-tumor has paralyzed the fingers that type "I was wrong"

I don't think there's any value in such statements.

That's not denying they're evidence; that's just saying the evidence doesn't count ... sorry if that was unclear.

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Lex, do you think OBL would still have been there if we asked first?

It is pretty obvious this administration did not, and that lack of trust of one of our allies led to the raid done in this manner.

We killed the least number of people we could to accomplish the mission seems like a poor excuse, but we could have done a lot more damage both on the way in and out, but we didn't.

We could have declared war on Pakistan in a manner similar to what we did with the Taliban for harboring this killer, but we didn't.

We're the big dog and we acted like it for once. I'm not sure I approve, but I'm taking my time doing any real condemnation of the illegalities of this action. It needed to be done. The assassination of OBL was long overdue.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

I think it is wrong in this day and age to invade a peaceful nation with no warning and kill suspects who pose no threat. It's a strong act of aggression that will just piss off lots of people there and generate more Bin Laden wannabe's. Furthermore it martyrs Bin Laden. It's also a human rights violation to enter houses and kill unarmed people, even if they struggle.

TheRiov:

You can keep trying to lay on the personal attacks, to which I'll simply respond ...

Prove that American forces assassinated Osama Bin Laden. Take all of the "evidence" current "given" and prove it ...

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Counts toward... WHAT

The "what" is where we have an impasse. You seem to be under the misunderstanding that Obama must produce evidence beyond a reasonable doubt - that which could hold up in a court of law - or he should be impeached. There's no such requirement to do this, and it's perfectly rational to buy into the story until there's some indication that it's false. You are just waaay out there to suggest that it's irrational to believe the reports for now.

If you don't want to count it as evidence in your personal opinion, that's your perogative, but I have not yet seen any good reason anyone else should not count it.

edit: sorry Khross, damn quote tags got me again.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You see, because of the political expedience provided by these events and the long term political consequences, I do indeed think this is the minimum standard that should be applied.Actually, it's not rational at all. There are already indications that the story as told to the public is problematic:

1. We disposed of the verifying material evidence.

2. Various spokespeople giving public statements about the event are inconsistent in their details of events and "unreleased evidence" (photographs).

Consequently, because the events cannot be verified (due to a lack of the body), we have no reason to believe they are true. This doesn't mean they are untrue ...

This does not mean the reports are unlikely. It simply means the truth is now unknowable. And, in that case, it is irrational to believe the government ...

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I have yet to see any inconsistency in the stories that isn't also consistent with an early announcement, and then clarification of details after a more thorough debriefing and after-action review with the participants.

This might speak to unwise haste in the public announcement, but it is highly consistent with changes in SITREPS and tactical reporting in most situations.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Ok, but IMO, that's completely ridiculous and irrational. Furthermore, very few, if any, people agree that this is the case. Thus, "fringe" is an adequate description of your position.



Now that we have established that this is originating from the "fringe", how much time should I devote to addressing this? I do not typically spend a lot of time addressing "fringe" positions, since people tend to be irrationally devoted to them. I've dealt with your above points already, so at this time I'm guessing it makes sense to simply /shrug and say "believe whatever you want."

There's plenty of good reason no one else should count it as acceptable evidence:

1. The source of the DNA material matched to OBL's sister no longer exists. Consequently, there exists no way to test for a false positive or independently verify the results. You have a one off test from a now destroyed source with DNA material that may or may not have been collected from the body in question. Since you cannot independently verify that DNA testing, it is wholly and completely unacceptable.

2. viewtopic.php?p=140800#p140800

Just re-read the original post. They don't count because they're no longer useful.

Yay! We matched a DNA sample ostensibly taken from a body we no longer have to OBL's Sister's DNA from a sample acquired at Boston General ...

How is that useful? What if you got an outlying result? What if something shows up to dispute that claim that requires further testing to falsify? How do you do that now?

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Ahh, as expected ...

Another dismissal. Good job, Arathain ... Good job. I believe Wwen covered your response earlier ...


Any skepticism of the proclamations is now a fringe position to be dismissed. How politically convenient with a President campaign cycle in its infancy ...

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If it didn't come from the source in question and yet still matched.. well, I don't see how that would be a problem. The only problem is if it doesn't match. I'm also not sure who would do this independant verification, and without better reason that simply "the situation is fishy" and "the government lies" I see noe reason it's unacceptable. YMMV, but other people's suspicion is not evidence of any misdirection in this case.



Sorry, but evidence does not ever "not count" unless you're in court where it not counting is a legal fiction. This is not a matter of law.



What if indeed? Is there any reason to think any of that is actually the case?

I have acknowledged that there is a possibility of deception by the government here, but I have not seen anything to convince me the possibility is anything more than that - a possibility of indeterminate, but small, probability. I understand that you are highly suspicious and skeptical of government, but skepticism is not evidence.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Considering that you can be charged and convicted of murder without the prosecution producing or even finding a corpse would indicate that your assertion is flat-out wrong.

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Diamondeye:

Having the body and ability to perform multiple tests matter for a great number of reasons, not the least of which is repeatability. When one makes extraordinary claims, one has an extraordinary burden of proof. The government has made an extraordinary claim while simultaneously rendering verification impossible. That alone should create doubt. When those claims are both politically expedient and create massive amounts of political capital, then the political end game must also be considered.

There are reasons to be skeptical of these claims, not the least of which is destruction of primary evidence.

Once again, I wouldn't have given it a second thought until they dumped the body into an ocean 12 hours later.

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No, hypocrite. Stop placing positions on people that have not been stated.

Arathain: You seem to be under the misunderstanding that Obama must produce evidence beyond a reasonable doubt - that which could hold up in a court of law - or he should be impeached.
Khross: You see, because of the political expedience provided by these events and the long term political consequences, I do indeed think this is the minimum standard that should be applied.
Arathain: Ok, but IMO, that's completely ridiculous and irrational. Furthermore, very few, if any, people agree that this is the case. Thus, "fringe" is an adequate description of your position.

Now stop making up positions and being disingenuous. That does not even imply that "Any skepticism of the proclamations is now a fringe position to be dismissed."

It means YOUR RIDICULOUS POSITION AS STATED ABOVE is fringe, and should be dismissed.

Apparently you missed any statement about substantial evidence in there ...

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Yup, so keep saying you're going to dismiss my position by calling it fringe without actually addressing it ...

It's ok, I get it now ...

Also, you might want to throw in more personal attacks next time; I'm sure it will increase your credibility and make you seem smart.

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Thankfully neither President Obama nor The Glade Leftists get to determine what fringe is, and it is likely those who were already critical of this administration will become more skeptical of this "kill" as evidence continues to... Well... Not mount.

Additionally, labeling people as "radical" and "fringe" hasn't worked out very well so far for Democrats when that position runs counter to facts and logic so I don't expect this will be any different.

Rassmussen verifis my position with their latest poling data.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20