The Glade 4.0

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110 ... page=1&c=y

It finally hit the news and there are 4 pages of the article. Here is the first page:
Man who clashed with cops over legal gun was also armed with audio recorder

By DAVID GAMBACORTA
Philadelphia Daily News

gambacd@phillynews.com 215-854-5994

MARK FIORINO'S story has three elements that tend to get people worked up - gun rights, Philly police and YouTube.

On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?"

Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him.

What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.

"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip."Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."

The cops, department officials later admitted, were wrong. They didn't know that a person who has a license to carry a firearm can openly carry it in the city.

But the story doesn't end there. How could it?

After Fiorino posted his recordings on YouTube, they went viral. Members of pro-firearms forums on the Web took a particular interest in the incident.

The Police Department heard about the YouTube clips. A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police.

Fiorino said he plans to sue the city whenever his criminal case is resolved.

Police spokesman Lt. Ray Evers said the department believes that Fiorino wanted to get into a confrontation with cops, that he wanted to see them lose their cool so he later could file a lawsuit.

Or, as one cop was overheard saying on the YouTube recording: "He set us the f--- up, that's what the f--- he did."

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

He'll have his day in court? Law's on his side and the whole thing is taped for the jury. Looks like he's got plenty to go free and sue the city on.

Also any police officers who don't understand you guys have open carry out there needs to go back to school. It only seems logical that there was training about OC that went on and the officer(s) in question had to sign off on it. Hopefully Fiorino's lawyers will realize this and obtain the records.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

They had their MPOETC training in 2009 (or at least they should have if their department obeyed state law on the training and qualifications of police officers.)

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

It does seem that he wanted a confrontation, as he just happened to have a recorder on him. But that is not illegal, as of yet, ?

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Its standard practice for people who OC and CC in Pa to have a recorder on them so should they ever happen to use deadly force they have evidence to protect them from prosecution and lawsuit.

Its especially true for OC'ers as they have been harassed and abused by police and without evidence there is nothing to fight back against such abuse with.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I would be worried about turning on the recorder with an officer pointing a gun at me. How would you manage it without looking like you are reaching for something?

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Many electronic recorders can record for hours at a time so its on when you go out however this gets into other sticky legal areas.

Usually you have warning of lights or see them approach before they make contact though.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

What do OC and CC stand for?

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Open Carry, Concealed Carry

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

He probably already had it on, expecting a confrontation. I suspect also that he was looking for and/or expecting a confrontation. That said, he's no worse (legally) then WBBC and their protests, or any number of other instigators. He didn't make the cops do their jobs poorly.

Having now read the full article, it looks like he also started carrying the recorder after being harassed by the police in Philadelphia before, including them confiscating his gun for several months.
Granted I have been with Elm and seen him stopped randomly as well, granted it was in the suburbs.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Yeah I would have not given my name but you guys were with me. In retrospect should have told you guys to just keep on getting drinks and pizza. Dan looked absolutely terrified

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I just did not want the pizza to get cold

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Well then there you go. His training cert should be on file. Not that ignorance of the law is an excuse or anything. It would do OC good to have case like this go through, provided judges are willing to not let the current situation with the police stand.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

I'm really confused as to why someone would want to open carry instead of concealed carry. Especially given the reactions that they know they are going to get from both the public and the police.

And just because I can isn't a really convincing argument. Just sayin.

I would guess that some think it's a better deterrent personally. Though I think CC is a better deterrent overall. The primary reason to carry a gun isn't "to shoot people" it's do deter criminals. If granny (or someone walking down the street) might have a gun, a purse snatcher might think twice.

Yeah if I chose to be armed (I choose to not), I'd probably prefer an OC to CC, but making laws based on personal preference isn't good for a free society though.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

A few reasons:

Criminals tend to look for easy targets and a gun on the hip automatically eliminates a person from being an easy target...this has the effect of also making safer anyone in close proximity.

Faster draw with less interference.

It also functions as a speech issue in that it encourages commentary and engagement with the public and demonstrates to many people that normal people carry firearms all day every day and helps to get rid of that firearm owner's = hicks with shotguns mentality many who haven't even seen a firearm have.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I would not be surprised to learn that the training was not conducted in a timely manner. Local police departments (even large ones) are notorious for "forgetting" to conduct training, then trying to blame it on the officer for "not knowing the policy" when **** hits the fan.

The only thing I disagree with is the notion that a gun on the hip "automatically eliminates a person from being an easy target". To a degree, that's true but it also marks you as a source for a firearm for a criminal looking to get one, or as the first guy to get shot if he decides to pull something. You've shifted the surprise advantage from you to him, in exchange for a faster draw on your part.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

If I am held responsible because "ignorance of the law is not an excuse to break it" then they should be too. And that is a SHITTY cop if he does not know his own regs.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

"Ignorance of the law" is not applicable here. The police were not ignorant of the law; they misunderstood it. Misunderstanding the law can be a defense, just as mistake of fact can be a defense. In this particular case this appears to be specifically mistake of non-governing law. In other words, the officers were well aware that people with CCW permits can, in fact, legally carry weapons, but were mistaken about the non-governing portion regarding manner of carry. Essentially, the mistake of law was a mistake of fact. This is arguable, but it leads to the next piece

As to the internal department regulation, they are not necessarily "shitty cops". The responsibility is on their supervisors to educate them on the regulations and to ensure that they know them. If they did not know the regulations adequately, why were they allowed to work? Were they not trained? Not tested? What about the law? Did anyone, at any point, bother to explain or test them on this fact? I would imagine not, since open carry is far and away, not the norm, and I can easily see the department glossing over this because "you'll never see it, don't worry about it."

I suspect one would have been hard-pressed to find more than a handful of Philadelphia police officers who were fully versed in the laws and regulations regarding open carry, but I am sure all of them could correctly explain concealed carry. Without further facts, I'm laying this one at their bosses' feet.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I am more than willing to concede at this time and accept that very same thing.

As an aside: it is pretty shitty of the DA to try and screw this guy after the fact though.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I haven't seen the video, so I can't comment on that.

In any case, the article doesn't indicate that he was ever actually arrested or charged until the DA charged him later, so even if the cops were rude, they evidently did listen to what he had to say.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I agree, but one should be free to make that decision for oneself.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Yes. However, one should not make that decision by considering only the advantages and not the disadvantages.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I think I'm begining to have a different take on this situation. I think it's reasonable to believe that the office recieved his proper training in 2009. Since that is a reasonable assumption, then it's not too far to assume the officer was the one who chose to escalate the situation. Starting off an encounter with an armed individual with a "Hey Junior" is in my opinion, asking for a problem.

So my opinion- the cop knew the law, knew that this guy was OC'ing legally, and decided to pick a confrontation not knowing he was being recorded.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill