The Glade 4.0

This is extremely false. People have been living past 40 for forever. I think you are confusing life expectancy with how long people live after being mature. Next time before you post things like this do a little bit of research.

It is, in fact, perhaps a bit of hyperbole. That doesn't change the basic argument that humans in their un-medicine enhanced state don't have that long of a life expectancy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

I believe that two points were being made.

One, is an objection to making normal physiologic events into medical problems.

Two, is an objection to taking boat loads of medication to manage symptoms relating to normal physiologic events. Mild, over the counter medications are specifically excepted. Therefore your example fits into the allowed exception.

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Memento Vivere

I have local knowledge.
That sandbar was not there yesterday!

Its not any less of a medical problem just because you took X action and Y resulted.

Any more than if I tried to lift too much weight and tore muscles in my back.
Yes it was a stupid thing to do.
Yes it was self-inflicted.
Yes I could probably live without treating it.
Yes the answer is not to lift too much or not to lift too much improperly.


and when Ibuprofen doesn't cut it, you may well have to go with something stronger and not-over-the-counter.


But its STILL a medical problem. And recovery CAN be aided with drugs. And Yes, workplaces will continue to ask people to lift more than is healthy.

Believe it or not, my (former) GP is the worst about this stuff, and for a long time I went a long with it. He had me taking medications to control the side effects of the medications.

I finally told him enough is enough, and stopped all of it. I finally got to the point where I decided we were too far apart in our opinions on this and I fired him.

No one is saying that medical conditions don't exist. What we're saying is that the sleeping problems from working an odd schedule are not a "disorder"; there's nothing wrong with you because you can't work all night, sleep all day, and feel just as good as a person who works during daylight and sleeps at night. You don't have a "disorder"; you have a hard work schedule.

You still may need treatment for the symptoms of that, but the cause of the symptoms is not any sort of disorder; it's the external conditions you're operating under.

To go with your back pain example, if your back is sore from working that does not mean you have Sore Back Disorder, it means you worked your back hard, and you may need a painkiller for it. There's nothing wrong with the way your back is put together, it just went beyond its capabilities.

If you tore a muscle in your back, that doesn't mean you have Shitty Back Muscle Disorder or something; it's an injury. You need treatment, but the problem is not in the structure of your back, it's in the way it was put to use.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So the only thing you're objecting to is the name tagged with 'disorder'?

What about carpal tunnel? ooooh. its got the word "syndrome"


seriously?

So did you not read, or just don't agree with the information that Raf and SG posted that show that indeed there is a disorder around this kind of thing?

Sounds like someone is suffering from intolerantitis.

Uh.. yes. Did you miss SG's comment about the 50 year old coming in and wanting a drug to remedy morning stiffness? This is the kind of mentality people get from being constantly told that every little ache and pain is a disorder, a syndrome, or whatever.



What about it? I don't know enough about it to say anything. There's a medical difference between a syndrome and a disorder to the best of my knowledge but I'm not a doctor so I can't say what it is. If only there were a doctor here you could post this question to...

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Carpal tunnel syndrome doesn't have an immediate drug "cure" Riov. It's a repeated motion stress injury.

Are you just ignoring me on purpose, or what? Not getting enough flaming in your life? I'm not disagreeing with that information at all. What's being pointed out is that if you have trouble sleeping because of shift work, it's not because of a "disorder"; you do not have any abnormality that prevents you from being able to sleep at any time of day like everyone else. The normal condition is that being awake at night and sleeping in daytime messes you up.

Calling it a "disorder" leads people to believe that they should be able to work all night and sleep all day without significant problems, and if they can't, there must be something wrong with them that can be treated with chemicals. In actuality, there's nothing wrong with them because they can't do that very well. They may eventually end up with something wrong with them if they insist on, or are required to, work night hours for a long period of time, but that's the same as the sore back - it's not because you have a back disorder that your back is **** up; it's because you used it wrong. It's not because you have a problem adapting to night work if you have a hard time sleeping on a night shift schedule - it's because you're forcing your body to do something it's not designed to do.

You may eventually end up with a disorder from night schedules over long periods of time, and that's what Raf was discussing. Not that there's something wrong with you if your circadian rythm gets disrupted - your circadian rythm is supposed to work that way.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

And, honestly, that disorder you may eventually end up if you **** with your sleep cycle long enough and consistently enough with isn't so much a disorder, as an injury.

The same way carpal tunnel is a repetitive stress *injury*, or tennis elbow is an *injury.*

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Pondering this, I would say the the only long-lasting negative side effect of having worked shifts and strange hours for so many years, is that I I tend to be able to force myself to stay awake, even if I don't want to.



For exampe, I can't fall asleep reading or watching TV. Even the slightest amount of stimulation is enough to keep me awake and alert. I suspect this is a byproduct of conditioning myself to stay awake on boring overnight shifts, etc...

I think people are arguing over semantics, here.

On the other hand, I don't object to medicinal means (or any other means) to attempt to circumvent the limitations of being human. Of course, sometimes the "cure" is worse than the "condition," so any such medication should not be taken lightly.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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You can definitely condition yourself. My father worked on submarines. One night, there was a strange noise, and my mother could not wake him up. He was dead to the world. She wispered "fire on the bridge", and both of my parents were injured in the explosion of movement that followed.

Your activities alter both your conscious and unconscious self. This can be a benefit, and it can create problems, depending.

I read this as "morning stiffies" and was very confused on multiple levels.

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Do you believe that because there is a disorder called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, that people believe that they should be able to go through the horrors of war without any problems at all?

As Talya says, this appears to be a symantic complaint where some folks have attached some sort of stigma to the word "disorder" that I at least don't believe is valid.

I don't see how you think this is the same thing at all. PTSD is explicity stated to be the long term effects of war; no one is trying to claim that being in a war is a medical disorder.



Not at all. The issue is a misidentification of where the disorder begins, that leaves people to want a drug to prevent the disorder before it even appears.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Based on my reading of the link provided in the OP, neither is this disorder.

It is the OP, wrongly in my opinion, who is claiming that people are saying that working nights is a medical disorder. The link he posted does not support his kneejerk reaction to it.

He was probably just tired :p

Heh.

The part where people complain about having a hard time sleeping during the day, and being tired in the short term, however, is being claimed to be a disorder.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Where, other than posters here, has that been claimed in the thread? i.e. I don't see any links or stories of that being some large problem.

Gee, maybe in the Diagnosis section of the Wiki DS linked?



These problems manifest for a lot of people as soon as they start shift work because their sleep pattern is disrupted.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."