The Glade 4.0

Sort of, closer to what DE is saying.



Basically this. You are not ill, you are working in a shitty situation.

Ex- I know people who were quick to get diagnosed as bipolar now and when they do... everyone they know suddenly has the symptoms of being bipolar, and should go get checked because they have drugs to fix that now...

But bullshit, not everyone is bipolar, just because they do not fart sunshine and rainbows does not make one manic depressive. Highs and Lows are part of life. Adversity is part of life. Life throws tests at us to test our character. If every time you are tested you need another pill or another shot of something, you failed.

I know there are legitimate conditions out there, and people who suffer from those conditions: but not every child has ADHD, not everyone who has a bad day is Bipolar, and these companies that make these new drugs play off the paranoia and phobias of people.



this really is the way this pathetic society has gone.



There are times when I think that the only sure is a self administered 9mm solution.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

That is a list of symptoms, most of which go beyond the "man I'm dragging *** today" or "I'm tired" variety. Also, that last sentence is kinda important. Which points out that there is a lot of variety in response and severity of symptoms.

Bottom line is, as has been pointed out by several folks here, this is a real disorder. Now, sure there are probably plenty of folks who use it as a crutch, just like many other disorders or illnesses. But that doesn't make it any less real.

There is a difference though, some people can have an atypical response to working a night shift. All this is saying is that some people react differently--when people's responses stray outside the norm by a certain value, statistically they are abnormal. If we can help people get back to the normal range and function better, why are you complaining about it?

If someone had reduced lung capacity that made them unable to maintain physical exertion quite as well as some people, do you say "Gosh, some people are just not going to be able to run as far?"

The issue here is quality of life. If you can improve quality of life for people with a medical diagnosis, why are you so opposed to it?

My daughter DOES suffer from ADHD. She has trouble focusing and it impacts her grades, her relationships and her ability to stay out of trouble. With medication she's at the top of her class. Without it she's near the bottom. She has a medical condition you can map out by looking at the neurotransmitter levels in her brain. This is not some made up diagnosis-- I can see concrete benefit in her life. Why WOULDN'T I give it to her?

Believe me I tried other solutions. I tried non-pharmacological approaches, diet, sleep changes--nothing helped but 20 mg of Vyvanse does. She's happier, healthier, better educated, and statistically less likely to do illegal drugs because of the Vyvanse.

Nearly all recreational drugs raise the levels of certain neurotransmitters. The brain needs these same neurotransmitters, and people will get them one way or another. The Vyvanse does it in a much safer and legal fashion. Without the stimulation granted by some ADHD meds, sufferers are far more likely to turn to recreational drugs to get their 'fix'

Rarely does someone prove another's point so eloquently with their immediate response.


Helping people "get back to the normal range and function better" in this instance doesn't require a drug regimen, it requires not performing the act that makes them function poorly. If you went to the doctor and said, "When I hit my head with a hammer, it hurts." Would you expect the doctor to prescribe Oxycodone to relieve the hammer-induced pain?


If you can improve the quality of life for people "with a medical diagnosis" without drugs, why are you so opposed to it?


Can her ADHD be "cured" by returning to a regular sleep pattern? IF not, why bring up (at length) a non-analogous situation?


Because it creates an addiction to the drug; causes seizures, hallucinations and delusions (AKA psychosis), paranoia, aggression, irritability and mood swings, a frenzied, abnormally excited mood, as well as seizures and sudden death in children and teenagers.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

But SOMEONE must do the work. If as you state, this is normal reaction to this then everyone suffers from it to some degree. I'd personally be happy my doctors, EMT, Police etc who have to work the night shift are going to be sharp and well rested and not toss them from the profession simply because they have an atypical response to odd hours.

Your 'plan' for dealing with it is just tell people who have to work odd hours is to find another profession? BRILLIANT!!!!



It comes from that whole 'real world' I live in where people dont just quit their job because of odd hours.




Please. Have you looked at the potential side effects of ANY drug? They have to do it for aspirin. Its a miracle they don't have to post an identical list for water.

Nah, the idea that you have no choice but to quit your job or take drugs is a textbook definition of a False Dichotomy, much like "If we don't have "free" healthcare all the poor people will die!!!11!!oneone!!".

My "plan" would be to change shifts. What, I can't head an expedition to Atlantis, pursue a doctorate full-time, continue with my current employment and be the primary care-giver to my daughters...Doctor, I need some drugs, stat! If you can improve the quality of life for people "with a medical diagnosis" without drugs, why are you so opposed to it? If you went to the doctor and said, "When I hit my head with a hammer, it hurts." Would you expect the doctor to prescribe Oxycodone to relieve the hammer-induced pain?



You asked, I answered. No teenage girl eye-rolling required. That, much like the egregious use of exclamation points and ALL CAPS give the appearance of irrationality and immaturity.

Yes, I have, and amazingly, aspirin's side effects don't include psychosis, paranoia, aggression, irritability and mood swings, a frenzied, abnormally excited mood, or seizures and sudden death in children and teenagers. They are required to "do it" because they are known side effects. Amphetamines do **** to you, ask ds.


No miracle, the nanny-state many advocate for so vigorously just hasn't advanced that far yet.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

You're woefully misinformed about Things like call rotations, shift bids and the like.

All things documentation and your doctors prescription of a shift change can fix. Without drugs.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

No, I'm not...but please, continue with your attempts to inspire awe and amazement with your telepathic skills, and fiat declarations, swami.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

the ADA requirements are "Reasonable accommodation". I'm not sure a hospital for example, would consider it a reasonable accommodation if you cannot work shifts required, and I'm fairly certain unions would raise holy hell if someone got bumped to a 'no nights' shift with no seniority. (the union discussion is another one entirely and not one I want to get into here. Also you have to have a diagnosed disability or condition. Half of what they're objecting to is diagnosing this as a disability in the first place.

Ahhhhh, its not that you're uninformed, you are simply incapable of taking data and drawing logical conclusions from it. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I can't speak for everybody in the thread, but I have no issue calling this a disability (provided it can be reliably and clearly diagnosed). It's just a disability born of injury, not a disease.

Now, your workplace has to provide you with handicapped accessible facilities or accommodations whether you confined yourself to a wheelchair with a skydiving accident or whether you were born with spinal bifida.

So my contention has no impact on ADA related stuff, and would seem semantic in such a debate.

However, it might not seem nearly semantic in other debates, like how insurance should treat it, etc.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

True Kaffis, but the ADA does not require that you employ someone who cannot do the job. If the job is EMT you simply cannot perform CPR as a quadriplegic. A significant portion of the health care industry has a requirement for people to be on-call. I'm not sure where the 'reasonable accommodation' line is. that's a Lawyer's responsibility but generally not being able to work the required schedule is not considered reasonable.

Lets look at another place. Would the US Army allow someone to not take night-watch because of this condition? Would they refuse to allow them to serve? Or would they let them take a pill to treat the symptoms?

Not trying to get into the debate. I'm just tossing that into the ring to be considered alongside Rynar's post. I make no claim to have knowledge to support, let alone confirm, Rynar's assertion. So if you want to continue discussing that, then Rynar's the one to address, not me.

Honestly, in addition, I'd speculate that a lawyer could make a big stink about this kind of thing if an employee met with resistance to making accommodations. My classification and consideration of the syndrome (again, I hesitate to use "disorder" because it implies a pre-existing condition) as borne of injury, rather than disease, implies that night shifts are (or can be) a hazardous working condition. Making such implications, and making it clear you're willing to argue that kind of a case and take it up the chain, would be all kinds of bad for them if you've got the resources to see it through.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Well, if some data were presented rather than fiat declaration you might be able to formulate a point. As it stands, you've got neither.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I wonder when the pills for BDS and PDS will be released? I'm sure MSNBC/CNN/Daily KOS and The Huffington Post will buy them by the rail car load.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

You're "not sure"? I see no data from which one could a logical conclusion.


Some more data-less data? The unions raise holy-hell about a lot of things. What is the point?


Really? Who's they?


Irrelevant.


Is "a significant portion" considered data? What portion is that? Does being on call cause this disorder? What is the prevalence if the occurrence in people who are on call versus those who are working nonstandard shifts?


A fiat declaration with a disclaimer is still a fiat declaration.



Would being on a night watch rotation cause the disorder? What is the prevalence? Would it go away when the rotation is completed? Would the drug regimen be effective in the instance of short term nonstandard shift? Would the drug have time to take effect before the rotation was completed?

I'm looking for data with which to form a logical conclusion. I'm not getting any from these posts.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Personal effects I have experienced:

1. Restlessness until extreme fatigue sets in before being able to get a proper rest.
2. Constant battles insomnia.
3. Gum Disease and bone degeneration in my jaw

There are probably others that I cannot think of off hand.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Hrm.. Memory issues perhaps? :p~~~

LMAO, that may be; but I attribute that to other drugs.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I agree that people's medical conditions shouldn't be a crutch whereby they may obtain a job they can't perform proficiently. However, I don't think a condition should preclude someone from being qualified, either, regardless of how they choose to compensate for it. Now, in that same vein, I don't think they should put the burden of funding whatever methods of compensation on any unwilling parties. Insurance is very complicated in the United States because of all the anti-exclusivity policies - it would be simpler if the insurance companies were dictated by contract alone.

Would pre-existing conditions or chronic conditions be insured? That's hard to say. While insurance is a way to hedge the large, immediate costs of traumatic and discrete injurious type of events, it could also be considered a way to hedge against the cost of potentially developing chronic conditions. This would be up to the insurer and insured parties to determine their counter party and self risk to such conditions respectively when becoming involved in such matters.

So, if the insurance playing field is level and fair in this way, then it's not really a problem for people to invoke their policies to help them pay for their compensation. After all, the insurance company is just pooling the premiums and risks of a group of voluntary users (in this hypothetical case). If the users find that they don't like their risk being pooled with certain groups of insured or the insurance company is skimming too much for services rendered, they can chose to be insured elsewhere.

That is how I feel about the monetary ramifications of medicating to get around an injury.

In the realm of ethical use, I don't find any qualms about people choosing to use whatever chemical crutch they need to accomplish what they do. It's pretty obvious that most people do this already. Drugs are nothing more than a combination of specific chemicals. In terms of chemical complexity, those we manufacture and put in our bodies are oftentimes simpler than those provided by nature. There is no absolute delineation between what we should use and what we shouldn't in regards to ethics and health. Only the individual can determine that. A caffeinated beverage or certain food provides a specific chemical stimuli to the body, just as a manufactured pharmaceutical does. This is why I don't care about PED use in sports. If the sanctioning body bans it, then it bans it. It can choose to allow them, too. But it's not right or wrong in any absolute sense.

As we continue to master new environments are bodies clearly are not adapted for - outer space, office space, night time, the surgeon's table, high g environments, high altitude environments, high pressure deep sea environments, industrial facilities, radioactive environments etc. etc. - we will continue to rely on our mind to alter our body in ways so we can remain in these environments. Although our understanding of the workings of the human body are extensive they are still in relative infancy and the actual effects of being in these environments is still not fully understood. As we understand more, our ability to adapt to new environments will become increasingly irrelevant. Just be aware that understanding more is an extremely complicated and difficult proposition.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

I don't have an issue with people seeking help with their ailments. Its been my experience that there is rush to medicate before other options are even considered. My last trip to my GP, she wanted to prescribe me meds with only a 10 min consultation. Its wacky. Look at commercials- too fat? Take xenadrine. Short tallywacker? Get your free enzyte trial today. Moody? Sore back? High cholesterol? Soft poop? Hard poop? We've got pills for all of that!!! Don't want to make an actual lifestyle change to improve your health? We've got your pill for that!

Sure there are people who absolutely need medication in order to have a normal quality of life. I feel those people are a small fraction of all the people who are on the meds.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

I think a lot of you have seriously colored perceptions due to the fact that you're much older, have much more experience, and therefore have actual leverage when it comes to negotiating your shift.

If you're under 30 and your boss tells you you're going to the night shift, you're going to the night shift. Your own health is irrelevant and if you have to take drugs to do the job then that is what you have to do. If you make noise about the difficulty, especially in this job market, you will find yourself out of a job and you can forget about getting hired anywhere else that talks to your previous boss.

Come on now, many of you have been in the military. What do you think the response would have been if you had complained to your superior that your "work hours" were affecting your sleep patterns and you needed different ones?

I'm not an alcoholic, I need it to get to sleep so I can wake up early for work.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

/nod

Yeah that is what it sounds like to me too.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut