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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Dash wrote:
A public trial in absentia would be fine. I'm concerned that Dr Paul seems to think we can just find this guy like we did Timothy McVeigh. That to me sounds part delusional and part armchair quarterbacking.


We managed to find Saddam Hussein for a trial. That actually was war, too.



Even better, let's occupy Yemen to get him.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:15 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I think the implication here (not saying I agree with it) is that he's effectively renounced his citizenship by committing treason, and is therefor not entitled to constitutional protections granted citizens.

That may be their argument, but there's no legal basis for it. You can't cease to be a citizen by committing crimes, not even heinous crimes and/or treason.

TheRiov wrote:
Perhaps he renounced his citizenship directly?

As far as I know, he did not. It's worth pointing out that you can't cease to be a citizen by simple declaration, even a public one. U.S. citizenship law don't work that way. You have to leave the U.S. and file an official affidavit of renunciation at a U.S. consulate. See also Terry Nichols. He actively tried to renounce his citizenship multiple times, but he never went through the official channels, so it didn't count.

The only thing that comes close to a loss of citizenship by declaration is the "Reed Amendment", but that only bars you from re-entry to the U.S. It doesn't technically affect your citizenship status, and it's literally never been enforced.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:21 pm 
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More questions about whether or not Al-Awlaki was a traitor than the FEC ...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:17 pm 
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Team America World Police.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:21 pm 
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If this guy had been killed in the process of attacking some other legitimate target, well, **** him. However, it appears he was the target. While that's not acceptable, it's also not acceptable that he sit in another country and use his rights as an American citizen to shield himself while giving aid and comfort to an enemy. I'm not quite sure what should happen. Perhaps we could have an impeachment!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
If this guy had been killed in the process of attacking some other legitimate target, well, **** him. However, it appears he was the target. While that's not acceptable, it's also not acceptable that he sit in another country and use his rights as an American citizen to shield himself while giving aid and comfort to an enemy. I'm not quite sure what should happen. Perhaps we could have an impeachment!


Elmo wrote:
1. Extradition
2. Letter of Marque
3. Trial in absentia


These seem to be a very reasonable option, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:42 pm 
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If extradition was a reasonable option, why was it not already done?

I'm not sure what a letter of marque would have done to improve the situation

Trial in absentia I suppose would work, but frankly I'm more uncomfortable with trial in absentia than with just blowing his *** away.

I'm also going to point out that at this point, its rather late to use any of those options.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Letter of Marque: Hey Yemen we understand you're busy with your own ****. How about you let us send some people over there to arrest him and bring him back?

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Mixed views on this.

I'd like to think their should have been a better way to deal with this guy. Why not send seal team six to arrest him and if he resists give him a bullet ala bin Laden.

I thought if you picked up weapons against your countrymen you lost you citizenship. We went over this with some bearded guy we caught in the early days of Afghanistan.

I'm not particularly tore up that this dirt bag is gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:39 pm 
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John Walker Lindh? He didn't lose his citizenship. There is absolutely no means whatsoever to revoke citizenship, other than fraud in obtaining it in the first place.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Alright. Then my other two points stand. I really think we should have tried to capture him, but at the same time I'm having a hard time feeling sad that he's gone.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Alright. Then my other two points stand. I really think we should have tried to capture him, but at the same time I'm having a hard time feeling sad that he's gone.


Seperate the assasination from the man they assasinated.

They killed a US citizen for alleged crimes with no trial.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:16 pm 
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I think it's interesting how this is such a big deal because this guy was a U.S. citizen. Is that really important here? Should the president be allowed to order the assassination of anyone without trial? I don't believe that rights are only held by those who happen to have the proper citizenship.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:17 pm 
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I think I was one of the few people here (maybe the only) who said Bin Laden shouldn't have been assassinated.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:51 pm 
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Rynar wrote:

Seperate the assasination from the man they assasinated.

They killed a US citizen for alleged crimes with no trial.


I'm trying, hence the whole "I have mixed feelings about this." It's kind of like when the WBC does stupid stuff and they force me to defend them.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:58 am 
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Wait, wait, wait... You've felt yourself inclined to defend the Westboro Baptist Church before?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:31 am 
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Ooo there is a secret memo! What could possibly be in the memo though?

Obama: Dear DoJ, can we whack Aulaqi? Check yes or no.
DoJ: Sure lol

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

Quote:
Secret U.S. memo sanctioned killing of Aulaqi

The Justice Department wrote a secret memorandum authorizing the lethal targeting of Anwar al-Aulaqi, the American-born radical cleric who was killed by a U.S. drone strike Friday, according to administration officials.

The document was produced following a review of the legal issues raised by striking a U.S. citizen and involved senior lawyers from across the administration. There was no dissent about the legality of killing Aulaqi, the officials said.

“What constitutes due process in this case is a due process in war,” said one of the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss closely held deliberations within the administration…

“As a general matter, it would be entirely lawful for the United States to target high-level leaders of enemy forces, regardless of their nationality, who are plotting to kill Americans both under the authority provided by Congress in its use of military force in the armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces as well as established international law that recognizes our right of self-defense,” an administration official said in a statement Friday.



Ron Paul has also suggested impeachment would be possible.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:44 am 
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Oh wow the DoJ gave him permission - well that's great except by the Constitution they cannot override an individual's rights either. Just like they couldn't do a lot of the things they claimed they could under Bush when the Supreme Court smacked the ever living **** out of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:17 am 
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What I find kind of disturbing is that noone seems to care about the people who died in the car with him. They killed the guy who programs AQ's website, who was also an American.....can you even get death for that if you're convicted of it in an actual court?


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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:58 am 
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One thing is certain: his days of plotting attacks that kill Americans are over. That works for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:06 am 
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Quote:
“As a general matter, it would be entirely lawful for the United States to target high-level leaders of enemy forces, regardless of their nationality, who are plotting to kill Americans both under the authority provided by Congress in its use of military force in the armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces as well as established international law that recognizes our right of self-defense,” an administration official said in a statement Friday.


I'm down with that.

Quote:
A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment. The administration officials refused to disclose the exact legal analysis used to authorize targeting Aulaqi, or how they considered any Fifth Amendment right to due process.


Why so secret?

Quote:
Robert Chesney, a law professor at the University of Texas at Austin who specializes in national security law, said the government likely reviewed Aulaqi’s constitutional rights, but concluded that he was an imminent threat and was deliberately hiding in a place where neither the United States nor Yemen could realistically capture him.


Sounds reasonable to me but then the question becomes the definition of "imminent threat"

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:11 am 
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How was writings being published on Al Qaeda's site an "imminent threat"? I guess he also doesn't have the right to free speech?

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:27 am 
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I'm surprised no one else read the FEC ruling last week ...

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 Post subject: Re: Paul on Al-Awlaki
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:27 am 
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nailed it

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:09 am 
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The 5th amendment says no 'person', so wouldnt it and this argument also apply to Osama bin Laden for example?

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