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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:22 am 
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I'm a bit surprised there isn't a thread about this already. Would love to get some viewpoints here.

It's hard to find basic articles on the matter now, as it's progressed into the various branching offshoots since the story first broke, so I'll just link the Wiki page and let you go from there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Honestly, before the forensic evidence is in for the gunshot wound, it's really impossible to say much IMHO.

However, it does really seem like the whole incident was "forced" by Zimmerman attempting to play police officer without the appropriate training or temperment.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
However, it does really seem like the whole incident was "forced" by Zimmerman attempting to play police officer without the appropriate training or temperment.

^ This

I thought neighborhood watch protocol was to observe and report not to engage in armed confrontations. Unless this kid was literally beating someone to death in front of Zimmerman there was no reason to escalate the situation beyond what he originally did, call 911 and report it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Based on his, what, 46 calls to the police this year, he really does seem like a nut.

Racist? Who knows.

Obviously, he **** up. Did he break the law? Not for me to decide.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Bottom line for me originally was: From the 911 call Zimmerman made it sounded to me like he was stalking and then chasing Tryavon Martin. Zimmerman was armed, Martin was not. Martin is dead now.

Sounds REAL bad for Zimmerman, however this is his side of the story:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager

Quote:
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.


Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened.

In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.


So, now I dont know what to think.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Bottom line for me originally was: From the 911 call Zimmerman made it sounded to me like he was stalking and then chasing Tryavon Martin. Zimmerman was armed, Martin was not. Martin is dead now.

Sounds REAL bad for Zimmerman, however this is his side of the story:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager

Quote:
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.


Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened.

In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.


So, now I dont know what to think.


Again, he really should not have even put himself in this position by confronting Trayvon imho.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Based on his, what, 46 calls to the police this year, he really does seem like a nut.




Nope.


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Most police officers will recognize the archetype that VerBruggen assumes Zimmerman to be: the guy who wants to be a cop but for some reason cannot, but who nonetheless acts as a sort of watchman for his neighborhood, calling the police for any perceived breach of good order. And calling the police 46 times in a single year would indeed seem excessive if not psychotic. But, as Andrew Cohen reports at the Atlantic, Zimmerman’s 46 calls to police came over the course of 11 years, not one, with the confusion owing to a typo on a report released by the Sanford police. And given the level of crime in the area, an average of four calls per year may not be an inordinate amount at all. (The website Crimemapping.com lists 282 crimes within a mile of the site of the shooting within the last six months, including three burglaries within the gated community itself.)



http://pjmedia.com/blog/treyvon-martin- ... a-verdict/

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:42 pm 
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I still need more information. Does the police report say that Zimmerman was bloody and beaten when they arrived? Regardless, it seems the police at the very least should've perhaps conducted a more thorough investigation when someone is shot and killed? I don't know, but that would seem like common procedure, or at least it should be.

(edit) and sorry Nitefox, but someone who has been doing this for 11 years, calling the police even 4 times a year about anything he perceives as suspicious, to me says he's a bit obsessive about this type of thing. Now none of that necessarily says anything either way about this particular incident, but we need to at least know the details of this guy, and all those calls he made. How many of them resulted in nothing? We don't know this because the police didn't investigate.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:48 pm 
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All I know from this event is that if I ever end up having to shoot a black individual in self-defense, I'm screwed, since I don't have a multi-racial family to fall back on as evidence that I'm not racist.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Slythe wrote:
(edit) and sorry Nitefox, but someone who has been doing this for 11 years, calling the police even 4 times a year about anything he perceives as suspicious, to me says he's a bit obsessive about this type of thing. Now none of that necessarily says anything either way about this particular incident, but we need to at least know the details of this guy, and all those calls he made. How many of them resulted in nothing? We don't know this because the police didn't investigate.



Disagree as the numbers support Zimmerman and his desire to keep his community safe.

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(The website Crimemapping.com lists 282 crimes within a mile of the site of the shooting within the last six months, including three burglaries within the gated community itself.)


While details of Zimmerman I'm sure will be forthcoming as this whole situation has become very political, we also need to know some more details of Martin. From what I've read, he was there because he had been suspended from school for a week. Not sure of the rules in his district, but getting suspsended from school for a week around here means you did more than cheat on a test or talk back to a teacher. It usually means violence of some sort. Also from what I've read, Martin's mother I believe has gotten his records shut up real tight like. Granted that's a lot of assuming, but no more or less unfair that what's being thrown at Zimmerman.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
While details of Zimmerman I'm sure will be forthcoming as this whole situation has become very political, we also need to know some more details of Martin.


Oh absolutely. We need to know everything we can about both of these guys. There's still so much we don't know. Actually, I wonder if the fact that there's a federal investigation now (if we can trust that) might reveal some uncomfortable and politically inconvenient facts about the situation....who knows. I always fantasize about the idea of someone who happened to videotape the incident suddenly showing up - yeah right. All I want to know is the truth.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:28 pm 
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There's enough confusion that I don't think anyone will be able to justify putting this guy in jail. He's an idiot, and should have followed police instructions, but that does not mean he's a criminal.

Quote:
George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him.

The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.

In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested.

Martin's girlfriend had said in a recording obtained exclusively by ABC News that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "why are your following me, and then the man asked, what are you doing around here." She then heard a scuffle break out and the line went dead.

Phone records obtained by ABC News show that the girl, who is 16 and asked to remain anonymous, called Martin at 7:12 p.m., five minutes before police arrived, and remained on the phone with Martin until moments before he was shot.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:17 pm 
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This is a pretty interesting case all the way around.

Initially my thought was that this ******* chased the kid down, accosted him, then when the fight started, shot him, and the only real question was, is it manslaughter or murder?

However, let's get one thing out of the way first. The handling by the police department in this town was utterly incompetent. There is no way a shooting death should be closed as a case in such a cavalier fashion. Some idiots have tried to claim "it's the south, he was a black kid" as the reason, but that contains its own seed of bigotry. It seems likely that the PD simply didn't know what to do so rather than get any advice they just ruled it self defense and washed their hands of the matter in an appallingly blase fashion.

Now as to the case, it seems that events went something like this:

Zimmerman sees Martin, decides for whatever reason that he's suspicious and calls the police.
He follows Martin while on the phone.
The dispatcher figures this out, tells him not to.
He does it anyhow, still talking
The dispatcher asks if he wants to speak to an officer, he says yes, they agree on a spot
He indicates he's going to hang up and (key) asks if the cop can call him and find out where he is when it's time to meet.
At some point afterwards, he gets out of his truck (according to him, to check the street name) and either confronts Martin or Martin confronts him.
There is a struggle
Martin is shot
Witnesses hear the shooting, appear, and see Zimmerman and the dead Martin

The questions seem to be
1) Why did he follow Martin?
2) Why did he get out of the truck?
3) Who started the fight?
4) Did Martin get Zimmerman down, if so, was he then beating Zimmerman?
5) At what point did Zimmerman produce the gun?
6) Did Martin ever become aware of the gun, and if so, at what point, and how long after that did Zimmerman fire?

It appears there's one, mostly anonymous eyewitness claiming Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him. There are at least 2 other witnesses claiming to have heard the altercation and then seen Zimmerman over Martin afterwards.

Right now, it looks like it will essentially test "stand your ground." Was Zimmerman in a place he had a right to be in? Did Martin assault him first? It's not against the law to follow a suspicious person; notice that the dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that" not "you can't do that".

It also seems like the "ZOMG RACIST! crowd" is engaged in the usual "it's racist not to railroad Zimmerman because a black teen died." Zimmerman was a jackass and had no good reason for following Martin but he wasn't breaking the law. The only place he might have been was in getting out of the truck and confronting him, but even then if he didn't threaten Martin, didn't brandish his gun, and didn't attack or restrain Martin he probably didn't break the law their either. Zimmerman is claiming to have gotten out to look at a street sign, and while this seems a bit odd at first glance, not every street corner has one where you can see it easily, especially if you're also following someone, and not everyone knows every street even in their own neighborhood, and he'd already told the police he'd tell them where he was when they called back.

The other problem facing the "racist" crowd is that most of the scenarios wherein Martin "pleads for his life" involve Zimmerman producing the gun, then diddling around for quite a while before eventually shooting Martin, or even more implausibly, Martin pleading, then struggling with Zimmerman for the gun, and Zimmerman only finally getting around to shooting him when he's losing the struggle.

I've not come to any conclusions as to what actually happened as yet, but I have seen the two female witnesses and quite frankly I don't think they're credible. They're making assumptions about who was the one crying for help (I doubt they know what either man sounds like and contrary to what one woman said, Martin was not a "little boy") and talking more about what they "believe in their hearts" than anything substantive.

Regardless of what did happen, getting reasonable doubt against Zimmerman for murder will be a huge hill to climb. Then we'll be told this is "institutional racism", that a black teen was killed and his killer not incarcerated because we don't just automatically convict the killers of black teens like a racially tolerant society would. If he gets manslaughter we'll hear about slaps on the wrist. Martin seemed like a good kid, and Zimmerman was an *******, but teenagers aren't known for good judgement. If, indeed, he did get Zimmerman down and was beating him, it was arguably self-defense and definitely wasn't murder, but none of that matters because the real issue is how to keep the circular argument going. It was racism that caused him to be killed; any claim otherwise is just more racism.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:46 pm 
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The sad part is Martin very well could have been kicking the crap out of Zimmerman in self defense.

The whole situation really boils down to, and IMO this is fairly indisputable, extremely bad judgement on the part of Zimmerman.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The sad part is Martin very well could have been kicking the crap out of Zimmerman in self defense.

The whole situation really boils down to, and IMO this is fairly indisputable, extremely bad judgement on the part of Zimmerman.


It's pretty indisputable that Zimmerman's poor judgement caused the incident in the first place.

If Martin got Zimmerman down and was then kicking the crap out of him/hitting him in the head, it was beyond the territory of self defense. If you're in someone's mount and striking them in the head, that's well into the territory of deadly force. Of course, if Zimmerman were the initial aggressor he still couldn't claim self defense either but he COULD get it reduced to manslaughter a lot more easily.

On the other hand, if he were trying to get the weapon away, maybe not - but then, he would have to know the weapon was there. Zimmerman may have thought Martin was trying to get the gun to turn it back on him, too.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:56 pm 
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I don't know whom is guilty of what. That's why we have courts.

, but why are we blaming Republican Presidential Candidates for this?

, but why are the general public, Washington, and most of the media ignoring the "Dead or Alive" bounty by the New Black Panthers for Zimmerman.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Innocent until proven guilty. Arrest him, try him, let the facts come out in court.

Then after the verdict we can watch Florida burn. Skee and Phe, be somewhere else the day the verdict comes down. Just in case.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:49 pm 
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17 year old black male dies to someone who is identified as white (but self identified as hispanic). So no matter what Zimmerman will be considered guilty. It's a sad fact.

"In 2005 a woman accused Zimmerman of domestic violence and had an injunction filed against him. The month prior he had been arrested for shoving a police officer at a bar near the University of Central Florida". I can't speak to the laws of Florida, but depending on the severity of the charges, Zimmerman might not have been allowed to be carrying a firearm anyhow.


For me the case hinges on how Martin was shot. If he was shot while on top of Zimmerman, then thats it. Of course either way you know who's going to riot unless Zimmerman gets executed on BET.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
Not sure of the rules in his district, but getting suspsended from school for a week around here means you did more than cheat on a test or talk back to a teacher. It usually means violence of some sort.


Or carry a fingernail clipper to school, or a pen knife or any number of other stupid things these days.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Ok this is a small thing, but once again the media is such ****.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/ ... hings.html
and http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... e-911.html

Quote:
George Zimmerman's Long, Lonely War Against Black Youths Doing Things

By David Weigel

| Posted Friday, March 23, 2012, at 1:37 PM ET

From DeLuca:

On April 22, 2011, Zimmerman called to report a black male about “7-9” years old, four feet tall, with a “skinny build” and short black hair. There is no indication in the police report of the reason for Zimmerman’s suspicion of the boy.



Actual police log: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... story.html

Page 37:

"Is walking alone & is not supervised on busy street. Compl concerned for well being"

I still say Zimmerman was the catalyst for all this but the media definitely ran with their narrative.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Innocent until proven guilty. Arrest him, try him, let the facts come out in court.

Then after the verdict we can watch Florida burn. Skee and Phe, be somewhere else the day the verdict comes down. Just in case.


They may not even have probable cause to make an arrest yet. that's open to question under Stand Your Ground.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Not sure of the rules in his district, but getting suspsended from school for a week around here means you did more than cheat on a test or talk back to a teacher. It usually means violence of some sort.


Or carry a fingernail clipper to school, or a pen knife or any number of other stupid things these days.


There's a reason those stories make the news: they're the exception. Furthermore, he's an athletic kid in good shape and it's far from a stretch to imagine he got in a fist fight in high school and got suspended. I did, and that was my sole episode of getting in trouble in high school. I suspect I'm not the only one.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:42 am 
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Still not sure why he wasn't in school this time around but the halo the media has put on this kid is starting to dim...


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2 ... ayvon.html


Also, I love the photos the MSM has used in this case. Martin looks just like an innocent kid...Zimmerman, the white guy who isn't white, looks like a crook. Both pictures are not current.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:23 am 
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Is "White-Hispanic" a new classification? Is it an attempt to make it a white on black issues? Honestly I never heard that classification before.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism ... e-Hispanic

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:55 am 
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"White-Hispanic" means primarily of Spanish Heritage Colonial heritage, but I can determine.

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